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Old 04-08-2005, 10:48   #1
Ellyhime
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-Class rebalancing suggestions-

(as if they were ever balanced >.>)

Ok, before getting to the suggestions, bear in mind:

1) The numbers are all estimations. Actual tweaking needs to be done to fine-tune the numbers.
2) I don't know the HP of trojans, because I wasn't able to gather enough information. Just know that for the numbers given, they'll gain more because of the HP boost given to strength.
3) This is all going off of the chart:

warrior > archer > taoist > trojan > warrior

Each class is being made either actually effective, or more effective if already against their intended class. (archer vs trojan and warrior vs taoist should be near stalemates, or at least, too ineffective to bother about)

4) Rebirth will have to be re-thought, but after this is critiqued, I'll get to it. However, with rebirth slated to be looked at next in detail, it means, don't bring it up just yet when considering these ideas.
5) These are a couple ideas, not the only ones there are. If something looks like it won't work upon consideration, there're other methods to bring up.
6) These ideas are focused on making the PvP a little more fair/balanced.

So, without further ado:

>>> Change Strength to give 1 minimum and 1 maximum attack, and 6 additional HP, rather than 3 HP. Change mana to give 5 base MP (changes per promotion for taoists), and 4 HP, rather than 3 HP

Lvl 70 promotion HP: [Actual HP (proposed change in HP)]
Warrior - 1323 (1743)
Archer - 1113 (1248)
Taoist - 1323 (1463)
Trojan - XXXX (+330 from current HP)

lvl 100 promotion HP:
Warrior - 1803 (2418)
Archer - 1593 (1773)
Taoist - 1803 (2008)
Trojan - XXXX (+456 from current HP)

lvl 110 promotion HP:
Warrior - 1998 (2673)
Archer - 1725 (1929)
Taoist - 1998 (2223)
Trojan - XXXX (+510 from current HP)

Lvl 120 non-reborn HP:
Warrior -2193 (2928)
Archer - 1857 (2037)
Taoist - 2193 (2438)
Trojan - XXXX (+555 from current HP)

=Why? For one, it'll give warriors the second most HP, as they deserve, considering they are a melee class. Also, sets the discrepency between taoist and archer HP a little clearer, enabling the following to be more effective:

>>> Change Flying Moon to a skill that deals less, but unblockable damage. (unaffected by armor)
Elementary Flying Moon - 500 damage to target (upgrade at lvl 70)
Lvl 1 Flying Moon - 1000 damage to target (upgrade at 100)
Lvl 2 Flying Moon - 1500 damage to target (upgrade at 110)
Lvl 3 Flying Moon - 2100 damage to target (upgrade at 120)
Lvl 4 Flying Moon - 2400 damage to target (FIXED)

=Why? At 110, it'll one-hit an archer without a good + necklace, and at 120, it's very likely to one-hit an archer, as is the purpose of warriors.

>>>Add on a bonus of additional "Penetration" damage to arrows, that allows a part of physical damage to ignore defences (including dodge) entirely.

Every 15 points of dex = 1% penetration

=Why? This will increase arrow damage overall, moreso at higher levels, as dex increases, which is also where damage starts to suffer greatly. Warriors will block most arrows still, and trojans have quite a bit of HP, but taoists will suffer due to this. Unfortunately, because boots give a uniform amount of dodge totally unrelated to class, archers will take the highest proportionate damage due to having the lowest max HP. Which is why:

>>>Give a small bonus to dodge built in to the archer coat.

=As stated earlier, everyone gets the same amount of dodge in their boots. So archers will deal approximately the same amount of damage to everyone at the same level, currently. And even now, archers have the lowest max HP of all classes. That means, archers deal the highest proportionate damage... to themselves! With a little extra dodge in their coats, it'll fix that.

>>>Give a modifier to hercules damage, based on Current HP/ Max HP. Modifier is 1% for each percent above or below 50%, negative modifiers for above, positive modifiers for below.

50% of max HP = no modifier to damage.
70% of max HP = 20% damage penalty to hercules.
90% of max HP = 40% damage penalty to hercules.
Fully Healed = 50% damage penalty to hercules.
30% of max HP = 20% damage bonus to hercules
15% of max HP = 35% damage bonus
1% of max HP = 49% damage bonus


=The biggest problem with taoists fighting trojans currently is that they either deal too much damage and kill a trojan too quickly, or don't deal enough damage, and the trojan pots away the damage with ease.
With the way this suggestions works, trojans who rely on hercules to kill enemies suffer a penalty when at full HP, while those who are skilled in fast blade may stay at 100% regardless of HP. Hercules is still usable, and indeed, can become stronger than it ever was, but at a price.

>>>Add a +Mdef bonus to the composition of shields

=Battles between warriors and taoists should be generally even. As it were, currently, taoists come out on top in such a battle. A little more magic defence ought to level the playing field a bit.

============

No flames please, we can discuss these civilly, I'd hope.
I believe with these or similar/related ideas, all classes could be active participants in guild wars.

And yes, I'm well aware that this isn't the suggestions forum. I need a bit more input from the community on their problems in PvP.

Revision #1:
Fixed a typo in the last '>>>' statement , and a note: the lvl 4 flying moon was an afterthought with little thought.

Revision #2:
Rethought nerfing of magic def for trojans in favour of the current penalty to hercules, taking advantage of a taoist's specialty: reliable damage.

Revision #3:
Redid the hercules penalty. This one is a bit better, I think.

Revision #4: Fixed a typo and included a +Mdef bonus to shield composition to even out taoist vs warrior battles. Also, added a bit more data to the HP at promotions chart, to give more perspective on what trojans would gain, even though the exact information is not available at this time.
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Class Rebalancing Suggestions-
http://bbs.conqueronline.com/showthr...threadid=75023

When I was alone, I did not notice
the piercing blue sky.
When I was alone, I did not hear
the sound of the wind that chilled my heart.


The person who taught me this is not just anyone;
he is always close by, encouraging me.


As I felt your heartbeat, my mind envisioned
exchanged smiles, outstretched hands, bewilderment -
the two of us, bound together.


When I was alone, I did not understand
the true meaning of loneliness.
When I was alone, I could not look for
a reason to wait for the break of dawn.


When I am drenched in the overflowing sunlight,
two hands draw me close and hold me as tightly as possible.


You and I, showing the wear of our burdens;
you and I, illuminating each other's paths,
shoulder to shoulder, together.


You and I are far, far apart, but
you and I can surely someday be reunited -
strongly drawn together.


~Eternal Blue - Eien no Omoi (Thoughts of Eternity)

Quote:
Originally posted by banana
You cant repair your items though sometimes it shows full dura to you, indeed sometimes it doesnt have full dura because there are modifications, say one item has 5400 dura in data base, and it shows 54 in your client. If your real dura is 5370 which means your items has worn a bit but it still shows 54 in your client. So the sever will still ask you to repair your item or charge more money when you repair items.

Last edited by Ellyhime; 04-08-2005 at 13:57.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:00   #2
TCBlink
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I like it Elly. The Flying Moon seems a little weird to me, but everytime I look at it, it seems to work out okay.

Oh, and I must say. This is well thought out. Good work.
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Last edited by TCBlink; 04-08-2005 at 11:03.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:10   #3
Ellyhime
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Quote:
Originally posted by TCBlink
I like it Elly. The Flying Moon seems a little weird to me, but everytime I look at it, it seems to work out okay.
Doesn't it? ><
Archers are very close to taoists, def/mdef-wise, so anything that'd take those into account would also affect taoists.
The only thing I could pin-point with a definite difference between archers and taoists to take advantage of was the HP, which meant a defence-ignoring attack.

I really have no alternative idea for that one.
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Class Rebalancing Suggestions-
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When I was alone, I did not notice
the piercing blue sky.
When I was alone, I did not hear
the sound of the wind that chilled my heart.


The person who taught me this is not just anyone;
he is always close by, encouraging me.


As I felt your heartbeat, my mind envisioned
exchanged smiles, outstretched hands, bewilderment -
the two of us, bound together.


When I was alone, I did not understand
the true meaning of loneliness.
When I was alone, I could not look for
a reason to wait for the break of dawn.


When I am drenched in the overflowing sunlight,
two hands draw me close and hold me as tightly as possible.


You and I, showing the wear of our burdens;
you and I, illuminating each other's paths,
shoulder to shoulder, together.


You and I are far, far apart, but
you and I can surely someday be reunited -
strongly drawn together.


~Eternal Blue - Eien no Omoi (Thoughts of Eternity)

Quote:
Originally posted by banana
You cant repair your items though sometimes it shows full dura to you, indeed sometimes it doesnt have full dura because there are modifications, say one item has 5400 dura in data base, and it shows 54 in your client. If your real dura is 5370 which means your items has worn a bit but it still shows 54 in your client. So the sever will still ask you to repair your item or charge more money when you repair items.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:12   #4
TCBlink
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Lol, well I like this. *Pats*
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:13   #5
Masa
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Only thing i didnt like was 1 hit fire met..fire met isnt aimed its just right click -=1 kill sure it misses but isnt fixed fire met 1/3 chance of hitting ..wich is pretty high considering the trojan would be running away if the game ever came to that

Also considering the amount of trojans hp even if they only have 55% magic defense possibly being 1 hit by a same level tao would mean the tao would do around 2-3k to the other classes
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:17   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Masa
Only thing i didnt like was 1 hit fire met..fire met isnt aimed its just right click -=1 kill sure it misses but isnt fixed fire met 1/3 chance of hitting ..wich is pretty high considering the trojan would be running away if the game ever came to that

Also considering the amount of trojans hp even if they only have 55% magic defense possibly being 1 hit by a same level tao would mean the tao would do around 2-3k to the other classes
Fixed FireMeteor is 75% chance to hit.
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Looking in windows, knocking on doors. They need to take seven and they might take yours.
Can't call to mom, can't say a word. You're going to die screaming and you won't be heard.

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Old 04-08-2005, 11:23   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Masa
Also considering the amount of trojans hp even if they only have 55% magic defense possibly being 1 hit by a same level tao would mean the tao would do around 2-3k to the other classes
I'm not really sure how it'd play out, but I see where your concern'd be valid.
All classes are gaining a slight HP increase, trojans included, which is why I suggested nerfing their magic defence slightly.

The fire meteor comment was just on the side though, I didn't actually mean it should be buffed.

Not exactly sure how effective it'd be against trojans compared to other classes though. I'd need the exact HP numbers to figure it out, and unfortunately, I don't have them =\
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Class Rebalancing Suggestions-
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When I was alone, I did not notice
the piercing blue sky.
When I was alone, I did not hear
the sound of the wind that chilled my heart.


The person who taught me this is not just anyone;
he is always close by, encouraging me.


As I felt your heartbeat, my mind envisioned
exchanged smiles, outstretched hands, bewilderment -
the two of us, bound together.


When I was alone, I did not understand
the true meaning of loneliness.
When I was alone, I could not look for
a reason to wait for the break of dawn.


When I am drenched in the overflowing sunlight,
two hands draw me close and hold me as tightly as possible.


You and I, showing the wear of our burdens;
you and I, illuminating each other's paths,
shoulder to shoulder, together.


You and I are far, far apart, but
you and I can surely someday be reunited -
strongly drawn together.


~Eternal Blue - Eien no Omoi (Thoughts of Eternity)

Quote:
Originally posted by banana
You cant repair your items though sometimes it shows full dura to you, indeed sometimes it doesnt have full dura because there are modifications, say one item has 5400 dura in data base, and it shows 54 in your client. If your real dura is 5370 which means your items has worn a bit but it still shows 54 in your client. So the sever will still ask you to repair your item or charge more money when you repair items.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:25   #8
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I am only a lvl 104 trojan, but making trojans WEAKER against firetoa's seems like a stupid idea to me. maybe at high lvls fire toa's don't own trojans anymore because all the socks and dragons most trojans have by then, but at my lvl firetoa's still pwn trojans. with super +3 armor and elite +2 earing they still deal massive dmg to me. i was actually thinking of raising trojan's magic def O_o, atleast let it stay the same than.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:26   #9
Masa
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Well right now at level 110 my trojan with only elite +2 armor (socket may i add thats why its low +) takes around 610 damage from a tao level 105 with two refined nix gems and elite +2 stuff also level 1 tornado a level 104 tao with

+4 cap super nix
+3 bag super nix
+2 bracelet super nix
+4 backsword 2 super nix
+4 robe
level 2 nado did 1040 to me ..i have 3.5k hp thats 3 hits to kill me if im 120 and if that guy has fixed tornado and all super nix he'll be doing around 1400 a hit that would waste me ..thats TORNADO if meteor was leveld it would definetly 1 hit me taos can already waste trojans is just that trojans waste taos...only solution would be to kill hercules completely make trojans use ss/fb
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:32   #10
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Thats true. You shouldn't lower the m-def for trojans. They already have a hard time killing them, and if you give them more hp, it'll just be harder. Keep it the same.
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Looking in windows, knocking on doors. They need to take seven and they might take yours.
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Old 04-08-2005, 11:37   #11
Ellyhime
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Quote:
Originally posted by Masa
taos can already waste trojans is just that trojans waste taos...only solution would be to kill hercules completely make trojans use ss/fb
True, and that's not supposed to be the case. Warriors don't own trojans, archers don't own warriors, and up until lvl 100+, taoists don't own archer. With the damage increase due to arrow piercing, that'd hopefully make it so that taoists pre-rebirth don't ever own archers. But trojans own everyone in general.

Don't get me wrong, considering the difficulty that comes with aiming fast blade, and that archers can fly to avoid both herc and FB, it's generally fine.

But trojans shouldn't be killing taoists quite so easily with hercules.

Guess that's something to brainstorm over. I'll have to mull it over and come up with something else, but it seems unlikely to happen.

Warriors have high def, mdef, and equal to currently, but would have more HP than taoists after the HP change...

Only advantage taoist has over warriors is the steady damage output over time.

Perhaps if hercules received a penalty based on current HP/ max HP, where damage = less power, while fast blade remained full power.
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Class Rebalancing Suggestions-
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When I was alone, I did not notice
the piercing blue sky.
When I was alone, I did not hear
the sound of the wind that chilled my heart.


The person who taught me this is not just anyone;
he is always close by, encouraging me.


As I felt your heartbeat, my mind envisioned
exchanged smiles, outstretched hands, bewilderment -
the two of us, bound together.


When I was alone, I did not understand
the true meaning of loneliness.
When I was alone, I could not look for
a reason to wait for the break of dawn.


When I am drenched in the overflowing sunlight,
two hands draw me close and hold me as tightly as possible.


You and I, showing the wear of our burdens;
you and I, illuminating each other's paths,
shoulder to shoulder, together.


You and I are far, far apart, but
you and I can surely someday be reunited -
strongly drawn together.


~Eternal Blue - Eien no Omoi (Thoughts of Eternity)

Quote:
Originally posted by banana
You cant repair your items though sometimes it shows full dura to you, indeed sometimes it doesnt have full dura because there are modifications, say one item has 5400 dura in data base, and it shows 54 in your client. If your real dura is 5370 which means your items has worn a bit but it still shows 54 in your client. So the sever will still ask you to repair your item or charge more money when you repair items.
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Old 04-08-2005, 12:01   #12
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alot more needs to be done besides just the stat changes tho.

The bit about the arrow damge and dodge i agree with tho.

One thing about warrior they should do is maybe make another peice of equipment. like a gauntlet or somthing similar.
Somthing smaller than a shield weilding less damage protection than a shield but allows the use of a 2handed wepon.

This alone would make warrior a way better class.
The fact that a trojans little leather loin cloth gives MORE defence that a shiny metal warrior ARMOR is insane! as well as how thier little coronet gives the exact same defence as a big metal helmet

I dont know how many times this small issue has to be complained about before somthing is done.

having 2 types of shiled-type 2nd hand equipables would solve alot of issues with this at least. (one for 1handed weps with more def [Shield] and one for 2 handed weps with less def, but maybe slightly more atk bonus) of course another skill would be needed to, prehaps a "punch" skill where they punch with theyre gauntlet stunning the enemy in the same way as boom/earthquake.

Seeing as trojans already have more def in armor, way more hp AND spirit heal, this is rediculous.

Maybe if they gave warriors SH instead of trojans it might have been enough to save the warrior class from such an evil handicap.

Adding this littke extra peice of equip could possible single handedly fix the very under powered, under defended and under appriciated warriors.

changing the way the stats work might be a little too much change after so much time, would be great but toooooo many people would have a complaint about it..

Imagine all the taos and trojans that would complain about how theire stats dont work like they used to

Simple fix would be UP the defence/MagDef of the warrior armor already, there is NO reason it should be less that trojans.
Some will say "well use a shield if u want more def"
Well even without a shield a warrior should have MORE def and LESS power than a tro. not less power, def, HP, respect.

the shield/gauntlet would just be ADDED def to the "tank" class which warrior should have been.

This extra defence would not help much in lvling for them, but would give them a FAIR chance in pvp against all other classes.
Warriors already are stong lvls but basically helpless against any class in pvp their own lvl. (except maybe an archer IF the warrior has a shield, but ive owned many warriors with my archer when they SHOULD have been able to put up a fight)

just my 2 cents... and then some


-Neo
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Old 04-08-2005, 12:08   #13
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Alternately, this may actually be a better idea for hercules, as rediculous as it might sound at first:

50% current HP/ Max HP = Full Power hercules

> than 50 = penalty by that much
< than 50 = bonus by that much

So, 1% Hp = 49% damage bonus to hercules.
100% HP = 50% damage penalty to hercules.

Why?
Because of potions. Either taoists do to little or too much damage, and kill trojans too quickly, or the trojan can just pot off the damage too easily.

With this, trojans are rewarded for not potting, and punished for potting. A trojan who keeps their HP too high will have to rely on fast blade. A trojan who keeps their HP too low will die more easily to taoists.
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Class Rebalancing Suggestions-
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When I was alone, I did not notice
the piercing blue sky.
When I was alone, I did not hear
the sound of the wind that chilled my heart.


The person who taught me this is not just anyone;
he is always close by, encouraging me.


As I felt your heartbeat, my mind envisioned
exchanged smiles, outstretched hands, bewilderment -
the two of us, bound together.


When I was alone, I did not understand
the true meaning of loneliness.
When I was alone, I could not look for
a reason to wait for the break of dawn.


When I am drenched in the overflowing sunlight,
two hands draw me close and hold me as tightly as possible.


You and I, showing the wear of our burdens;
you and I, illuminating each other's paths,
shoulder to shoulder, together.


You and I are far, far apart, but
you and I can surely someday be reunited -
strongly drawn together.


~Eternal Blue - Eien no Omoi (Thoughts of Eternity)

Quote:
Originally posted by banana
You cant repair your items though sometimes it shows full dura to you, indeed sometimes it doesnt have full dura because there are modifications, say one item has 5400 dura in data base, and it shows 54 in your client. If your real dura is 5370 which means your items has worn a bit but it still shows 54 in your client. So the sever will still ask you to repair your item or charge more money when you repair items.
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Old 04-08-2005, 12:09   #14
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Warrior

When composing shields Physical attack is added
More defence on armour before level 120
More dodge against meelee characters
Reflect needs to be increased

Fire taoists

More non combat spells

Trojan

More stamina needed
More magic defence

Archer

More physical attack
More stamina
Faster Intensify charge
Better reborn skills
More defence
Increased amount of arrows

Water Taoists

More physical defence
More Magical defence
Be able to wear normal weapons before reborn (no str needed)
More magical attacks
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Old 04-08-2005, 12:27   #15
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allinuff is an unknown quantity at this point
perhaps give warriors a fb/ss like skill for 2-handers. trojans are fine as it is. taos have too much hp. archers would really benefit with some tweaking to dodge and a working "non-suicidal" reborn bow.
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Borrowed from a bro:
And the Lord said to John, "Come forth and thou shall receive eternal life".
But John came fifth and won a toaster instead.
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