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Old 03-27-2010, 15:22   #256
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Originally Posted by Arronax View Post
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?




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The answer is Jesus and the Cross. He's able, he's willing, and he took care of evil on the cross.

Evil is still around, so that people like you and me aren't exterminated and have the chance to receive salvation.

If you want Him to get rid of it, you're calling judgement on yourself. In God waiting, he is showing his grace, mercy and love.
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Old 03-28-2010, 04:02   #257
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One thing that has always mystified me, is why God bothered with us in the first place. Apparently, things were going pretty good, until the advent of a rebellious angel, who got the boot. Satan (or Lucifer, or w/e name you prefer), is an interesting figure...whom does he serve (think carefully on this). My point is, if he serves God, it does call into question the tacit assumption that God = good, and if he DOESN'T, then just how is it that there is some evil being that God doesn't control? I mean, how did that happen? An accident, oversight...I'd truly be interested in knowing your opinions.

Now, some people believe that evil exists just to give us a choice between God and not-God. In other words, to give meaning to our choices. And hence, all our suffering is so that redemption is possible (without such choice, it's not even necessary). Continuing on to a further extreme, God requires sinners, or else faithful believers are worthless.

The personal problem I have with this line of thought, is that the collateral damage seems to outweigh the possible benefit. I find it hard to believe, for example, that any human who is murdered in infancy (and yes, there are many every year) is capable of having reached an age of properly exercising their free will to believe, so this seems a terrible waste of souls. To what end?

I have read many times in this thread that "historical evidence" supports the events related in the Bible. Specifically, what historical evidence (exclusive of the Bible) documents the life, execution, and subsequent resurection of Jesus? I'll look into it, what are your sources?

Whether or not you believe Allah = God (Christian), is also porblemmatic. Seriously. Several figures in the Bible, also figure in the Qu'ran (Abraham comes to mind, for example). Now, if these 2 gods are one and the same, and he's giving different holy texts to different cultures, it seems logical that one of the accounts (at least) isn't true. I mean, consider Jesus: either he is the son of God, or he isn't. What evidence is there for believing the Bible is "more true" than the Qu'ran is, without using either one of these books as substantiation?

I disagree with the argument that because science can't explain "everything" it is somehow deficient as a world view. The scientific view of the world has never claimed to explain everything, in fact, it doesn't even really state the why of many things. It only says: IF we believe (insert hypothesis here) THEN we should expect things to behave a certain way. The predictions are compared to what we observe, and the hypothesis that fits best is using as a "working model". These models are typically revised, or replaced as the amount of data increases. Certain moral and philosophical questions may well be unanswerable by science, and people are free to augment science with their own personal views, which may, or may not, involve supernatural beings.
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Old 03-28-2010, 04:49   #258
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No, I believe he took 7 each of the clean ones, and I am not entirely sure fish had to be taken on board :x
By clean, G-d meant the kosher one's, so cows, goats, sheep etc...
Fish were most probably not taken on board since they need to be in the water to live. (doi)

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Originally Posted by Arronax View Post
"God instructs Noah to board the Ark with his family, seven pairs of the birds and the clean animals, and two pairs of the unclean animals and two pairs of the unclean animals" (wiki).

Yeah, so he took at the very least 2 pairs of each species of animal with him.
Do you honestly believe this to be even remotely possible?
I'm fairly certain that its 99.99% likely that not every species of animal that existed on planet earth boarded the ark at the time. Most likely, he took 2 (or 7) of every species of animal that existed in and around the area that he lived in, most probably ranging from Turkey to around Iran, where the human population resided at the time.

I really dislike threads named "Religion" and then bad mouth everything about Christianity. The Torah is ALL about asking questions and if you aren't satisfied with the answer, you ask another question. There isn't one single, logical question that you could think of related to the events of the 5 books of Moses (and most probably the rest of the Old Testament) that hasn't been asked, answered, argued and concluded by a set of scholars and written down.

One Rabbi (called Maimonidies) who lived in the 12th Century and was a Rabbi, Philosopher and the Physician of the Sultans of Egypt (I think it was Egypt) was a totally rational thinker. He said that there was no such thing as miracles and that the laws of Physics and nature have never changed. The 10 plagues for example were a result of some sort of event. Some believe it was a result of a volcanic eruption causing a chain of events. My flatmate is a firm believer that the laws of nature and Physics do not change and that its more likely that even the most unlikely of explanations is more probable than the laws of Physics were broken.

Just to reiterate one point; religion should NOT about accepting some weird doctrine and being told not to question it. If there is something in your belief system that you don't understand OR disagree with, speak with your religious leader and ask for a better explanation. If you still don't understand it or dislike the explanation, then argue back. I know I do it, and sometimes not enough.



Basically: Questions = Good!
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:29   #259
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Originally Posted by Lotak View Post
By clean, G-d meant the kosher one's, so cows, goats, sheep etc...
Fish were most probably not taken on board since they need to be in the water to live. (doi)



I'm fairly certain that its 99.99% likely that not every species of animal that existed on planet earth boarded the ark at the time. Most likely, he took 2 (or 7) of every species of animal that existed in and around the area that he lived in, most probably ranging from Turkey to around Iran, where the human population resided at the time.

I really dislike threads named "Religion" and then bad mouth everything about Christianity. The Torah is ALL about asking questions and if you aren't satisfied with the answer, you ask another question. There isn't one single, logical question that you could think of related to the events of the 5 books of Moses (and most probably the rest of the Old Testament) that hasn't been asked, answered, argued and concluded by a set of scholars and written down.

One Rabbi (called Maimonidies) who lived in the 12th Century and was a Rabbi, Philosopher and the Physician of the Sultans of Egypt (I think it was Egypt) was a totally rational thinker. He said that there was no such thing as miracles and that the laws of Physics and nature have never changed. The 10 plagues for example were a result of some sort of event. Some believe it was a result of a volcanic eruption causing a chain of events. My flatmate is a firm believer that the laws of nature and Physics do not change and that its more likely that even the most unlikely of explanations is more probable than the laws of Physics were broken.

Just to reiterate one point; religion should NOT about accepting some weird doctrine and being told not to question it. If there is something in your belief system that you don't understand OR disagree with, speak with your local Priest/Pastor/Rabbi/Imam (I forgot what the term for these guys were) and ask for a better explanation. If you still don't understand it or dislike the explanation, then argue back. I know I do it, and sometimes not enough.



Basically: Questions = Good!
I actually saw a very well done documentary done by the History Channel on the volcanic chain reaction for leading to the Exodus from Egypt.

Everything from one volcanic eruption could have caused every miracle. It is a scientific explanation for the miracles of the Bible.

Does it make me not believe in God? No, I believe God most certainly would be able to use one event to cause a chain reaction. It is part of being God. It also points out that Moses knew all of the events that would transpire before they did. If he hadn't been predicting them, then why would the Pharaoh blame him for the plagues?
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Old 03-28-2010, 11:59   #260
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Old 03-28-2010, 14:38   #261
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so like who believes in joseph smith and the golden plates?
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Old 03-28-2010, 14:52   #262
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so like who believes in joseph smith and the golden plates?
Mormons.
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Old 03-28-2010, 16:57   #263
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the values arent wrong but the values died to the whole bull**** part and to lie to a species like that is an escape not a solution

muslims kill jews thats not really a nice value (except if your nazi)
Your a descendant of a monkey and i will be gods creation. Lets just keep it at that

As for muslims killing jews.... jews kill muslims and muslims kill jews. Christians kill muslims and muslims and christians. Atheists get killed by all religious groups and all religious groups get killed by atheists. Atheists kill atheists. Christians kill christians, jews kill jews and muslims kill muslims. That about sums it up.

If they would read theyre respective religious books they would learn a bit of patience and tolerance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotak View Post
By clean, G-d meant the kosher one's, so cows, goats, sheep etc...
Fish were most probably not taken on board since they need to be in the water to live. (doi)



I'm fairly certain that its 99.99% likely that not every species of animal that existed on planet earth boarded the ark at the time. Most likely, he took 2 (or 7) of every species of animal that existed in and around the area that he lived in, most probably ranging from Turkey to around Iran, where the human population resided at the time.

I really dislike threads named "Religion" and then bad mouth everything about Christianity. The Torah is ALL about asking questions and if you aren't satisfied with the answer, you ask another question. There isn't one single, logical question that you could think of related to the events of the 5 books of Moses (and most probably the rest of the Old Testament) that hasn't been asked, answered, argued and concluded by a set of scholars and written down.

One Rabbi (called Maimonidies) who lived in the 12th Century and was a Rabbi, Philosopher and the Physician of the Sultans of Egypt (I think it was Egypt) was a totally rational thinker. He said that there was no such thing as miracles and that the laws of Physics and nature have never changed. The 10 plagues for example were a result of some sort of event. Some believe it was a result of a volcanic eruption causing a chain of events. My flatmate is a firm believer that the laws of nature and Physics do not change and that its more likely that even the most unlikely of explanations is more probable than the laws of Physics were broken.

Just to reiterate one point; religion should NOT about accepting some weird doctrine and being told not to question it. If there is something in your belief system that you don't understand OR disagree with, speak with your local Priest/Pastor/Rabbi/Imam (I forgot what the term for these guys were) and ask for a better explanation. If you still don't understand it or dislike the explanation, then argue back. I know I do it, and sometimes not enough.



Basically: Questions = Good!
I didn't bother reading your whole post, i stopped reading after you wrote about miracles not being true. Isn't that what faith basically is? Not having proof about somthing that is beyond belief.

I would advice the exact opposite, half the time you can't trust you local imam or religious leader. Go directly to the source and read the books for yourself and form your own opinion. Religious leaders are the reason people are on suicide bombing missions.
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Old 03-28-2010, 17:46   #264
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Originally Posted by Snyder View Post
Your a descendant of a monkey and i will be gods creation. Lets just keep it at that

As for muslims killing jews.... jews kill muslims and muslims kill jews. Christians kill muslims and muslims and christians. Atheists get killed by all religious groups and all religious groups get killed by atheists. Atheists kill atheists. Christians kill christians, jews kill jews and muslims kill muslims. That about sums it up.

If they would read theyre respective religious books they would learn a bit of patience and tolerance.




I didn't bother reading your whole post, i stopped reading after you wrote about miracles not being true. Isn't that what faith basically is? Not having proof about somthing that is beyond belief.

I would advice the exact opposite, half the time you can't trust you local imam or religious leader. Go directly to the source and read the books for yourself and form your own opinion. Religious leaders are the reason people are on suicide bombing missions.
I totally agree with your first part 100%. Humans kill humans.

As for your second part, I can't understand how you can comment on something without reading the whole thing. Nevertheless.....

Faith isn't about believing something blindly. If I said that right next to me I had the elixir of life and wanted you to believe it and you did, THAT would be believing in something blindly. If you did believe me without asking for some evidence, most people would call you an idiot. Even I would.

Everything in life has some sort of element of faith. For something not to have any shred of faith in it, a person has to basically totally sense it with all his senses. For example, how do you know that electrons exist? Have you ever sensed an electron? Can you even understand how something so small (mass ~ 10^-30kg. To put that into perspective, an average grain of sand has mass 10^-7kg, this means that the mass of an electron is 100 thousand, billion, billion times smaller give or take an order of magnitude) can have such a large impact on its surroundings? Even as a Chemist, its hard to fathom. You trust that these exist because of all the evidence there is to support the theory of electrons. In the same way you trust that the Bible is the divine word because you give some sort of evidence to support it.

With regards to miracles, what is the point in the laws that govern this Universe if they can be broken at any time? Isn't it easier to rationalize saying that even the most unlikely of events (something along the lines of all the molecules in a room moving to a the corner, which let me tell you is statistically so improbable, that its never happened in the history of the Universe) is more likely to occur than the laws of the Universe being broken?

Also, generally, when you ask a Religious leader a question, you should also ask for the source he got his answer from. Their responses to your questions always come from earlier sources.
If you took everything in the good book word for word, then you'd be stoning most of the people in San Francisco as well as all adulterers.
Also you cannot just come to your own conclusion about a certain law because then any Tom, Richard or Harry can say "this law means x y and z" and another can say "no this law means p q and r" and then you have two completely different variations of the same law. In Orthodox Judaism, its acknowledged that the rulings that the Rabbis and scholars of the past (till about the 16th century) are the truth and accepted and any new laws governing new technology (for example microwaves) have to fit in within these rulings. You cannot disagree with them. This way, the laws are universal around mainstream Orthodoxy.

Sorry for the wall of text. Please forgive.



Also I never said miracles weren't true, I meant that miracles in the sense that it goes against the laws of Physics and nature don't exist. That doesn't mean that the events that have occurred in the Bible aren't true. It just means it wasn't a miracle in that sense.
For example:


10 Plagues: G-d or Volcanic eruption resulting in chain of events?
Splitting of the Reed Sea: G-d or Typhoon?
Korach and his disciples being swallowed by the ground: G-d or Earthquake?
Walls of Jericho falling down: G-d or Resonant Frequency?

It would make MUCH more physical sense to me if the latter was true every time.

Also, a Rabbi I know says that anyone that doesn't believe the Universe is ~ 15 billion years old is more or less deluded. That's sugar coating what he said. Again...rational thinker.
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Old 03-28-2010, 19:54   #265
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I totally agree with your first part 100%. Humans kill humans.

As for your second part, I can't understand how you can comment on something without reading the whole thing. Nevertheless.....

Faith isn't about believing something blindly. If I said that right next to me I had the elixir of life and wanted you to believe it and you did, THAT would be believing in something blindly. If you did believe me without asking for some evidence, most people would call you an idiot. Even I would.

Everything in life has some sort of element of faith. For something not to have any shred of faith in it, a person has to basically totally sense it with all his senses. For example, how do you know that electrons exist? Have you ever sensed an electron? Can you even understand how something so small (mass ~ 10^-30kg. To put that into perspective, an average grain of sand has mass 10^-7kg, this means that the mass of an electron is 100 thousand, billion, billion times smaller give or take an order of magnitude) can have such a large impact on its surroundings? Even as a Chemist, its hard to fathom. You trust that these exist because of all the evidence there is to support the theory of electrons. In the same way you trust that the Bible is the divine word because you give some sort of evidence to support it.

With regards to miracles, what is the point in the laws that govern this Universe if they can be broken at any time? Isn't it easier to rationalize saying that even the most unlikely of events (something along the lines of all the molecules in a room moving to a the corner, which let me tell you is statistically so improbable, that its never happened in the history of the Universe) is more likely to occur than the laws of the Universe being broken?

Also, generally, when you ask a Religious leader a question, you should also ask for the source he got his answer from. Their responses to your questions always come from earlier sources.
If you took everything in the good book word for word, then you'd be stoning most of the people in San Francisco as well as all adulterers.
Also you cannot just come to your own conclusion about a certain law because then any Tom, Richard or Harry can say "this law means x y and z" and another can say "no this law means p q and r" and then you have two completely different variations of the same law. In Orthodox Judaism, its acknowledged that the rulings that the Rabbis and scholars of the past (till about the 16th century) are the truth and accepted and any new laws governing new technology (for example microwaves) have to fit in within these rulings. You cannot disagree with them. This way, the laws are universal around mainstream Orthodoxy.

Sorry for the wall of text. Please forgive.



Also I never said miracles weren't true, I meant that miracles in the sense that it goes against the laws of Physics and nature don't exist. That doesn't mean that the events that have occurred in the Bible aren't true. It just means it wasn't a miracle in that sense.
For example:


10 Plagues: G-d or Volcanic eruption resulting in chain of events?
Splitting of the Reed Sea: G-d or Typhoon?
Korach and his disciples being swallowed by the ground: G-d or Earthquake?
Walls of Jericho falling down: G-d or Resonant Frequency?

It would make MUCH more physical sense to me if the latter was true every time.

Also, a Rabbi I know says that anyone that doesn't believe the Universe is ~ 15 billion years old is more or less deluded. That's sugar coating what he said. Again...rational thinker.
Oh, didn't you get the memo?


Rational thought and belief are evidently two polar opposites. Questioning your faith is heresy.

Believing without a shred of evidence, discarding everything involving rational thought is "teh wai to gawd" (C)





Heed teh memo (TM) and you shall be saved!







//okai srs part nao:




How can you be religious if you are also a rational thinker though? Looking through the old testament, "belief" and "rational thought" will sooner or later collide.

Which parts of your good book do you truly believe in? (no need to giev huge list, just a very basic outline.)

or maybe it's easier to ask "which parts do you NOT believe to be true?
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Old 03-28-2010, 22:20   #266
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BLAH BRAH BLAH BLAH BRAH BLAH BLAH
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:44   #267
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Oh, didn't you get the memo?


Rational thought and belief are evidently two polar opposites. Questioning your faith is heresy.

Believing without a shred of evidence, discarding everything involving rational thought is "teh wai to gawd" (C)

Heed teh memo (TM) and you shall be saved!

//okai srs part nao:

How can you be religious if you are also a rational thinker though? Looking through the old testament, "belief" and "rational thought" will sooner or later collide.

Which parts of your good book do you truly believe in? (no need to giev huge list, just a very basic outline.)

or maybe it's easier to ask "which parts do you NOT believe to be true?
Rational thought and belief are not two polar opposites. Rational thinkers don't know everything about everything and so they to have to "believe" in certain ideas. No one really know anything for certain (by certain I mean 100%). For example, when making a bet on which team will win the football game, you don't know for certain that your team will win it. Does that make you irrational?

Also questioning your faith is NOT heresy. Leaders that say it IS heresy don't want people to start asking questions because then they start finding holes. Like I said, every single question you could think of related to Biblical events has already been asked, answered, argued, concluded and documented.

More often than not, when a child comes home from school, his parents will ask him "Did you answer the questions in school today?". In one case there is a story that a child comes home from school and his father asked him "What questions did you ask?" Sometimes, asking questions is more important than being given answers because questions require you to think and a good question shows you know what you are talking about or that you are paying attention.

If I had an algebraic equation and then I gave the solution and said to accept it, a few people would full stop. A few people would accept it but wonder how I got there. Some, however will actually ask how I got there. In the same way, the passages in the holy scriptures are the equations and the religious leader gives the solution. Should you not know the steps he took to get to this solution?
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Old 03-29-2010, 07:32   #268
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Originally Posted by Lotak View Post
Rational thought and belief are not two polar opposites. Rational thinkers don't know everything about everything and so they to have to "believe" in certain ideas. No one really know anything for certain (by certain I mean 100%). For example, when making a bet on which team will win the football game, you don't know for certain that your team will win it. Does that make you irrational?

Also questioning your faith is NOT heresy. Leaders that say it IS heresy don't want people to start asking questions because then they start finding holes. Like I said, every single question you could think of related to Biblical events has already been asked, answered, argued, concluded and documented.

More often than not, when a child comes home from school, his parents will ask him "Did you answer the questions in school today?". In one case there is a story that a child comes home from school and his father asked him "What questions did you ask?" Sometimes, asking questions is more important than being given answers because questions require you to think and a good question shows you know what you are talking about or that you are paying attention.

If I had an algebraic equation and then I gave the solution and said to accept it, a few people would full stop. A few people would accept it but wonder how I got there. Some, however will actually ask how I got there. In the same way, the passages in the holy scriptures are the equations and the religious leader gives the solution. Should you not know the steps he took to get to this solution?
Oh dear.

The first part was meant as a sarcastic kick in the shin to the retards (yes, retards) that accept anything blindly without asking a single question and without giving anything they read in teh BIBULZZZZZ a second thought, clinging to straws while desperately trying (and failing horribly) to rationalize their faith (IM LOOKING AT YOU, MITSURUGI!! (well.. the last sentence is directed at you anyways ;F)).









How old do you believe this planet to be? and how old does teh bibulz tell us that the world is?
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Old 03-29-2010, 08:43   #269
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Oh dear.

The first part was meant as a sarcastic kick in the shin to the retards (yes, retards) that accept anything blindly without asking a single question and without giving anything they read in teh BIBULZZZZZ a second thought, clinging to straws while desperately trying (and failing horribly) to rationalize their faith (IM LOOKING AT YOU, MITSURUGI!! (well.. the last sentence is directed at you anyways ;F)).

How old do you believe this planet to be? and how old does teh bibulz tell us that the world is?
Right....its hard to detect sarcasm when you cannot hear the person's tone of voice. Oh well....

I think there is insurmountable evidence to suggest that the planet is 4.5 billion years and the Universe is 13.7 billion years old. This doesn't mean that the Bible is untrue since day one begins with Adam (who most probably wasn't the first man on Earth) and not the beginning of time or the Earth.
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How moon/vio gems affect levelling skills
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Old 03-29-2010, 10:18   #270
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Right....its hard to detect sarcasm when you cannot hear the person's tone of voice. Oh well....
Welcome to the internet ***face.
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