[Wayne Brady :(]

http://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html

[BuddhaIncarnate]

Originally Posted by Heyga4Huk

In addition the American model is not proven to work, in fact your country is financially spiraling out of control, everybody acknowledges it nowadays.

I would argue that what is occurring now is not the American model, but an import of failed philosophies from the past 100 years. It is being conducted by people who hate the very principles America was founded on, and view the Constitution as an unnecessary noose around the federal government's neck.

The American population is actually coming out in large against the current spending policies of politicians. People who despise our country had taken the reigns, and it is showing. When you want a country destroyed for what it was, of course your policies will reflect that.

[Deathclaw]

Originally Posted by Heyga4Huk

That's a really nice graph. However Norway had a 13% annual SURPLUS really? Trololol.. what is this magic.

With Greece the degree of unsustainability is different, but the fact remains. It was running at about 5% deficit before the crisis hit. USA was running at 3% deficit. Actually that's true, Greece would get ****ed eventually, crisis or no crisis, but USA spiraled out of control only after 2009. The degrees of optimism are different.

By the way what does the last column in your graph mean?

Uhm norway is sitting on ****load of oil and therefore its one of the richest countries of the EU. Its no magic but simple demand...

Greece was running at a average of -5.9% before 2009. Im pretty sure that this was the highest deficit of all euro countries until then. Every other countries had way less debts before the crysis, even the critical countries like ireland or now spain.
We had -1.9% average deficits before the crysis btw. Therefore i wonder why you claim the fact still remains that greece didnt do any extraordinary, although the numbers clearly show that they had a way higher deficits than any other euro country before the crysis?

[Heyga4Huk]

Thanks Wayne.

Buddha it is hard to believe your fairy tale argument even with the powerful rhetoric that you use. It can be nullified by saying the name - Abraham Lincoln.

[Heyga4Huk]

Originally Posted by Deathclaw

Uhm norway is sitting on ****load of oil and therefore its one of the richest countries of the EU. Its no magic but simple demand...

Greece was running at a average of -5.9% before 2009. Im pretty sure that this was the highest deficit of all euro countries until then. Every other countries had way less debts before the crysis, even the critical countries like ireland or now spain.
We had -1.9% average deficits before the crysis btw. Therefore i wonder why you claim the fact still remains that greece didnt do any extraordinary, although the numbers clearly show that they had a way higher deficits than any other euro country before the crysis?

Pre-crisis they were not extraordinary. Looking at pre-crisis levels (Summer 2008), their average deficit isn't even the highest.

[Deathclaw]

Originally Posted by Heyga4Huk

Pre-crisis they were not extraordinary. Looking at pre-crisis levels (Summer 2008), their average deficit isn't even the highest.

Island is a competly different story and I was talking of the average deficit of 2000-2008 aka average pre-crisis deficit.

Greecy simply had the highest average deficit. Even hungary that lived way above their means had less than greece (-5.1%). This means that greece had a 15% higher deficit than any other euro country before the crisis.

The average deficit of the eurozone was -1.9% before the crysis. So greece had an 210% higher deficit than the average euro country. And you still dare to say that they didnt do anything extraordinary? LOL.

[Heyga4Huk]

We're getting bogged down in semantics. To understand my definition of being extraordinary, look at that graph. Azerbaidjan (which I relate to Gurcia in this talk) is not extraordinary, it is just the extreme of the trend. Kitai on the other hand is an outlier and as such it is extraordinary.

[Deathclaw]

Originally Posted by Heyga4Huk

We're getting bogged down in semantics. To understand my definition of being extraordinary, look at that graph. Azerbaidjan (which I relate to Gurcia in this talk) is not extraordinary, it is just the extreme of the trend. Kitai on the other hand is an outlier and as such it is extraordinary.

More than double of the highest deficit of any other euro country would be extraordinary for you?
You could also call it impossible. The penalty alone would drive them out of the euro. The EU would force them to pay the max penalty of 0.5% of the gdp every year, which would be around 1 Billion € every year. Beside that that would be around 40-60 Billion € debts every year. This means that they increase their debts by about 13-20% every year. Im pretty sure that the head of the state would be dead before the end of the week if a government ever decides to do that, therefore not gonna happen.

Extraordinary is an extreme but realistic value in my book...

[Heyga4Huk]

Well yeah, Greece they are already bankrupt as they will not pay the full principal + interest on their debt. I think I've said my position before and it is that the Eurozone is trying to make the bankruptcy as smooth process as possible so that the Eurozone itself will not suffer the same fate. It's bad for the kids and young adults of Greece though because they are not responsible for this whole crisis but their lives are affected the most.. just like Spain's.

You know that curse- may you live in interesting times.

Also good morning, lol.

[bahana]

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate

People who despise our country had taken the reigns, and it is showing.

I always find it interesting when people say that.
No the people that have the reigns do not hate our country, they may things differently than you but they still love America.

I am slightly democratic and will probably vote for Obama (not entirely sure yet) does this mean I hate the USA?

[Heyga4Huk]

Another Greek panic as people withdraw about a billion Euro a day these days.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/13/uk-greece-banks-idUKBRE85C0HT20120613

[Promethean]

Have been too busy at work to monitor this thread but hope to have some time on the weekend to respond properly. Tend to agree more with the Deathclaw on this one, also I'm not sure you should consider Summer 08 as being pre-crises. It may well pre-date the Euro-zone crises as we know it now, but it certainly doesn't pre-date Lehman.

Google Goldman's involvement in the Greek deficit cover-up, it's awesome. (Basically massive synthetic derivative to remove debt from government balance sheet).

[CornFlakes:o]

Originally Posted by Heyga4Huk

We're getting bogged down in semantics. To understand my definition of being extraordinary, look at that graph. Azerbaidjan (which I relate to Gurcia in this talk) is not extraordinary, it is just the extreme of the trend. Kitai on the other hand is an outlier and as such it is extraordinary.

That graph isn't even valid because you can never truly measure "mean of percent happy and percent satisfied with life as a whole" that is simply subjective. Everyone has different viewpoints on what they consider a "happy and satisified" life. You're comparing apples to oranges GAAAAAAAH

[BuddhaIncarnate]

Originally Posted by Heyga4Huk

Thanks Wayne.

Buddha it is hard to believe your fairy tale argument even with the powerful rhetoric that you use. It can be nullified by saying the name - Abraham Lincoln.

Did you choose him simply because of his presidency during the Civil War? If so, terrible choice of example to support your argument. The actions he took during and following the Civil War saved our country, despite many from both the North and South who wanted to destroy it.

Originally Posted by bahana

I always find it interesting when people say that.
No the people that have the reigns do not hate our country, they may things differently than you but they still love America.

I am slightly democratic and will probably vote for Obama (not entirely sure yet) does this mean I hate the USA?

Obama has said many times that America has never worked. He doesn't believe in what made America great. His ideas are being rejected because they aren't what the American people as a majority believe in.

Proposing and passing unconstitutional laws that the people reject in mass, suing states over political differences of opinion, trying to completely destroy the economy in the Gulf through government imposed shutdowns despite court orders to stop, and I don't even have to bring the debt issues into this argument.

You have every right as an American to vote or not vote for whoever you choose, and I won't hate you over it. My roommate voted for Obama in 2008, and we've never had a cross word between us. I live my life the way I believe, and allow others the courtesy to do the same. The problem is, there are people in government who believe it is their job to tell me how to live my life.

One last random point before I disappear for a while again...

Benjamin Franklin said that when the people realize they can vote themselves the government coffers, this will herald the end of democracy. Obama has almost tipped the scales to a majority of voters receiving from the government, rather than giving.

[Heyga4Huk]

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate

Did you choose him simply because of his presidency during the Civil War? If so, terrible choice of example to support your argument. The actions he took during and following the Civil War saved our country, despite many from both the North and South who wanted to destroy it.



Obama has said many times that America has never worked. He doesn't believe in what made America great. His ideas are being rejected because they aren't what the American people as a majority believe in.

Proposing and passing unconstitutional laws that the people reject in mass, suing states over political differences of opinion, trying to completely destroy the economy in the Gulf through government imposed shutdowns despite court orders to stop, and I don't even have to bring the debt issues into this argument.

You have every right as an American to vote or not vote for whoever you choose, and I won't hate you over it. My roommate voted for Obama in 2008, and we've never had a cross word between us. I live my life the way I believe, and allow others the courtesy to do the same. The problem is, there are people in government who believe it is their job to tell me how to live my life.

One last random point before I disappear for a while again...

Benjamin Franklin said that when the people realize they can vote themselves the government coffers, this will herald the end of democracy. Obama has almost tipped the scales to a majority of voters receiving from the government, rather than giving.

And yet he violated the Constitution. By your logic he didn't save but destroyed your country.