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Old 01-14-2014, 01:31   #181
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Originally Posted by Chronux View Post
Here you are again confusing a belief with what science should be and devices created by technicians that really know their job with postulating invisible forces and matter for the sole purpose of keeping alive the holy cow that gives the marxists the possibility to speculate about the multiverse.
No one has told you that you shouldn`t believe in dark things. Just be reasonable and understand that even scientists are blushing when they are telling you something about our universe.

Look here, after min 44, George Ellis is telling you about different views on cosmology. He is also telling you what are some of the big problems of cosmology right now and those are not the only ones. ( For example they don`t even know if the gravity is the dominant force in the universe, they only assume that to be true ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmxuju4XUVM

The truth is they have no idea what`s going on in the sky and it doesn`t look like they will understand something soon if they don`t start a honest debate. No one is against the hypothesis, just understand when something is hypothesis and something is real. The problem with dark matter in particular is not that they see weird things in the sky right now, that can be solved by modifying some physical laws, but they already used it to explain inflation and the formation of galaxies, that`s why it is so hard to open the debate and search for other explanations.
Do u idiot understand that we already use technology based on belief that exists because of observations.

It is the same with dark matter/energy. The effects are observable.

However the bs of religions is not even observable. Therefore no matter what you call science, religion is way worse. You blind religious fool just dont get that.
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:20   #182
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First of all i already said that the existence of god cannot be proven/disproven.
2nd they knew what to look for because the EFFECTS were observable. Thats how this started, similar to dark matter/energy.

Is there anything observable that might be caused by some supernatural force?
So, you're saying that the supernatural is simply unobservable?

You don't think that if God existed, he might be able to interact with the world and cause some observable thing to happen?

But in any case, as you've said, you don't think God's existence can be proven or disproven. So I guess you're somewhat agnostic. And probably lean towards his non-existence?


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When a scientist is trying to find the reason for something, they formulate a hypothesis, and then they do everything they can possibly think of to annihilate it. The good scientist will notice something that destroys the hypothesis, even if a lot of things confirmed it, and they will re-formulate the hypothesis and repeat until it is impervious. Now it's a theory. If evidence comes along in the future that wasn't thought of during initial testing that discounts the theory, then a revolution is had, and we're back to step one.
So... when they can't prove it wrong, then it's right?

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Science is able to "test" for God by showing that a God isn't necessary through accurate applications of nature (humans in labs included) doing the very same things.
And what if God created nature so that it works the way that it works?

Why is it that the world/nature is ordered in such a way that things are repeatable? Why is there order rather than chaos?

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Which god should we test for in our hypothesis of "what if god(s) existed"? There are around 4,000 known deities to choose from if you wish. You can create your own if you don't like what's already there; most people do. What abilities would they have? Again, and most importantly, how do we test them for accuracy of our hypothesis?
You could look at nature and try to discern what 'God' would be like. But I guess that's the realm of philosophy.

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The god debate is never ending, and for true skeptics this is just another piece of evidence that a "personal" god doesn't exist. A benevolent god that wants a personal relationship with his creation seems rather apathetic and vindictive to say the least.
What is it that makes you think he seems apathetic and vindictive?

From my understanding and belief, God is not apathetic. He did something to enable people to have a personal relationship with Him.
And vindictive, that implies that he has no right to judge. But I would think if he is God, then he would have the right to judge.
What's more, from my understanding - he took the judgment upon himself so that people could have a personal relationship with him. If anything, he's outrageously proactive, generous and loving.
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:48   #183
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So... when they can't prove it wrong, then it's right?



And what if God created nature so that it works the way that it works?

Why is it that the world/nature is ordered in such a way that things are repeatable? Why is there order rather than chaos?



You could look at nature and try to discern what 'God' would be like. But I guess that's the realm of philosophy.



What is it that makes you think he seems apathetic and vindictive?

From my understanding and belief, God is not apathetic. He did something to enable people to have a personal relationship with Him.
And vindictive, that implies that he has no right to judge. But I would think if he is God, then he would have the right to judge.
What's more, from my understanding - he took the judgment upon himself so that people could have a personal relationship with him. If anything, he's outrageously proactive, generous and loving.
A scientific hypothesis is tested by scientists. It has results that are repeatable.

If a god created the universe to look as if he didn't exist at all, then... sorry, what's the point of your argument again? If a crime scene looks like a suicide, we should call it a homicide and convict somebody, because somebody had to murder the victim! Seems kind of dumb now, doesn't it?

An ordered universe is an argument against the existence of god. It entails that everything works on its own. A god would cause chaos, because it would be a disruption of ordered operations. Prayer is simply asking for chaos.

I can look at nature and discern the possibility of a deistic god, but that's still an issue because then there's still the same answers that don't require god to have existed.

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Old 01-14-2014, 03:28   #184
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Originally Posted by 53cr37 W34p0n View Post
A scientific hypothesis is tested by scientists. It has results that are repeatable.

If a god created the universe to look as if he didn't exist at all, then... sorry, what's the point of your argument again? If a crime scene looks like a suicide, we should call it a homicide and convict somebody, because somebody had to murder the victim! Seems kind of dumb now, doesn't it?

An ordered universe is an argument against the existence of god. It entails that everything works on its own. A god would cause chaos, because it would be a disruption of ordered operations. Prayer is simply asking for chaos.

I can look at nature and discern the possibility of a deistic god, but that's still an issue because then there's still the same answers that don't require god to have existed.

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Lol, here you are now making examples the way I did a couple of days ago, in the same manner that you dismissed as useless. You're a hypocrite.

But if I may present a counter example;

Monkeys do live in a vast cage and have adapted to life there through many years, until they started questioning the existence of the zoo keeper. He must exist within their cage, otherwise he never existed and that cage just built itself on its own and monkeys appeared out of no where. Yes, some fossil just popped outta the blue and went through sequence of radical changes until they became monkeys!

In short, you can never find out if god was meant to be within the universe or outside of it. Most likely, outside.


Now, at least, you don't dare shoot down these examples. And don't bother trying to counter that one because you won't succeed.
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Old 01-14-2014, 03:34   #185
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Lol, here you are now making examples the way I did a couple of days ago, in the same manner that you dismissed as useless. You're a hypocrite.

But if I may present a counter example;

Monkeys do live in a vast cage and have adapted to life there through many years, until they started questioning the existence of the zoo keeper. He must exist within their cage, otherwise he never existed and that cage just built itself on its own and monkeys appeared out of no where. Yes, some fossil just popped outta the blue and went through sequence of radical changes until they became monkeys!

In short, you can never find out if god was meant to be within the universe or outside of it. Most likely, outside.


Now, at least, you don't dare shoot down these examples. And don't bother trying to counter that one because you won't succeed.
Where did God come from? Did he just pop out of the blue? What was God doing before he began creating?
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Old 01-14-2014, 06:08   #186
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So, you're saying that the supernatural is simply unobservable?

You don't think that if God existed, he might be able to interact with the world and cause some observable thing to happen?

But in any case, as you've said, you don't think God's existence can be proven or disproven. So I guess you're somewhat agnostic. And probably lean towards his non-existence?
Yes the effects of supernatural cannot be observed.


"You don't think that if God existed, he might be able to interact with the world and cause some observable thing to happen?"

You cannot disprove god's existence by arguing like that. Something can still be there even if you cannot see any effects.

Lets say god doesnt give a **** anymore for us and therefore doesnt do anything. This wouldnt disprove his existence.

However if you want to argue that god exists then first need evidence like an observable effect.


I am indeed agnostic and leaning towards atheism.

Every position is fine when it comes to god/supernatural. You cannot blame people for believing in god but neither for not believing in a supernatural being (as long as neither position cannot be proved) and i hate religions for forcing people to believe in something like that.
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Old 01-14-2014, 08:17   #187
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Where did God come from? Did he just pop out of the blue? What was God doing before he began creating?
I don't need to know such details because it has no significance or relevance in my life.

Asking that question holds so much arrogance on its own. It's funny, sometimes I think the whole issue is the size of our ego and whether or not we're willing to obey someone that tells us to do things.

Back to my example, do monkeys need to know or care why the zoo keeper came to be? No, they take care of their lives.

Why do you care how God came to be if you're not willing to believe in his existence? Don't you think this is some kind of hypocrisy? Is this a smartass question where you expect me to fail in answering? Because I think I've done otherwise.

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(as long as neither position cannot be proved) and i hate religions for forcing people to believe in something like that.
His existence is not supposed to be proven or witnessed right now. O.o

Seriously, why is that so hard to grasp? If you take a test you don't get to know the answers during the test time, you do the test on your own THEN you wait for results. In which case, our results will come out as soon as we pass away.
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Old 01-14-2014, 15:54   #188
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Do u idiot understand that we already use technology based on belief that exists because of observations.

It is the same with dark matter/energy. The effects are observable.

However the bs of religions is not even observable. Therefore no matter what you call science, religion is way worse. You blind religious fool just dont get that.
They don`t necessarily exist you idiot, the effects can be explained by different laws of physics or different models of our universe. I showed you before, you put our galaxy in the middle of the universe and you don`t need dark energy. Dark energy only exists in the standard acentric model.

Same for the dark matter, even the supporters of dark matter, when they are asked what will convince them that dark matter doesn`t exist they say : A good theory that can explain the weird observations and the inflation and formation of galaxies. The weird observations can be explained by playing with the laws of physics ( for example MOND ). The problem is they already used the invisible matter to explain the inflation and the formation of galaxies because there wasn`t enough matter there in the first place.
But since you are an idiot pretending to be a scientist you can`t understand simple things...if they are not told by Krauss, Hawking or any other marxist.

"A major outstanding problem is that most quantum field theories predict a huge cosmological constant from the energy of the quantum vacuum. This discrepancy 10^120 has been termed "the worst theoretical prediction in the history of physics!"

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Old 01-15-2014, 07:06   #189
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZF9bPVOsb4

Min 30 : " If someone can come up with a theory that can also explain the growth of structures from the beginning to now without dark matter and dark energy i`ll abandon them immediately. "
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:58   #190
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They don`t necessarily exist you idiot, the effects can be explained by different laws of physics or different models of our universe. I showed you before, you put our galaxy in the middle of the universe and you don`t need dark energy. Dark energy only exists in the standard acentric model.

Same for the dark matter, even the supporters of dark matter, when they are asked what will convince them that dark matter doesn`t exist they say : A good theory that can explain the weird observations and the inflation and formation of galaxies. The weird observations can be explained by playing with the laws of physics ( for example MOND ). The problem is they already used the invisible matter to explain the inflation and the formation of galaxies because there wasn`t enough matter there in the first place.
But since you are an idiot pretending to be a scientist you can`t understand simple things...if they are not told by Krauss, Hawking or any other marxist.

"A major outstanding problem is that most quantum field theories predict a huge cosmological constant from the energy of the quantum vacuum. This discrepancy 10^120 has been termed "the worst theoretical prediction in the history of physics!"
At this point ill just start with quoting myself because obviously dont get/read anything:

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Dark matter/energy is JUST a name. No matter how YOU want to call it its still the same. Nonetheless if something is observable then it exists and you really cannot call it a scam. Maybe dark matter/energy is not exactly how we imagine it but it cannot be a scam as in non-existant.
It cannot be a scam as long as it is observable.

Religion on the other hand is nothing but a scam.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:19   #191
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Religion on the other hand is nothing but a scam.
You have no right to call religions a scam, either. O.o
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:25   #192
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You have no right to call religions a scam, either. O.o
But its ok to call something a scam although its clearly observable? Religious people are indeed hypocrites.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:31   #193
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But its ok to call something a scam although its clearly observable? Religious people are indeed hypocrites.
I don't think he meant scam as in really scam. He was probably trying to downplay its significance or credibility or whatever that is in relevance to his argument.

Well no ****ing shet it is not a scam. Regardless, we all got our perspectives. Mine is to find a common ground between science and faith to the highest extent possible.
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:35   #194
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I don't think he meant scam as in really scam. He was probably trying to downplay its significance or credibility or whatever that is in relevance to his argument.

Well no ****ing shet it is not a scam. Regardless, we all got our perspectives. Mine is to find a common ground between science and faith to the highest extent possible.
So what scam is the opposite of a real scam?
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Old 01-15-2014, 10:40   #195
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I'm not sure if you were trying to speak English or German just now. Elaborate.
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