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Old 12-10-2009, 15:00   #31
Lamb
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Originally Posted by Raiujin View Post
You make them sound un-hygenic
Yeah, as if toilet paper and regular bathing will make monks okay.

Monk verdict: NO
Reason:
1) Don't trust TQ.
2) Current PVP state is good.
3) It ain't broke why fix it.

If you want, you should beta-test monks on a test server, invite a few community members to the test them in pvp, both fighting as monks and against monks, and take their feedback.
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Old 12-10-2009, 15:04   #32
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Originally Posted by thehempknight View Post
You're not contributing to the discussion by just saying "no". How about providing an actual reason?
Don't even try that nonsense.

I have had enough of TQ playing this double think game.

We explicitly said NO Ninja:

Ninja in Classic?

Did you listen despite that overwhelming evidence? NO!

Here is a poll I just created and I can almost guarantee you Monk is going to be shot down so fast it will make TQ cry:

Monk in Classic?
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Old 12-10-2009, 15:05   #33
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In case you still don't get the message...

But Just in case you still dont get the message:

This email was sent to service@conqueronline.com by me:

This email is in concern to the new monk class which if I am predicting correctly you are about to release.


I do not want to see Monk released in Classic CO (servers Liberty & Royalty) release it ONLY in 2.0 please.


The reason I state this is because observing your release of Ninja last year, clearly your company did not have the right priority in mind when designing the class, and therefore only worked to destroy your product more.


I'm certain your design team was sick of hearing people complain about "bulkers" or "db buyers" and so they designed the Ninja with the intent of doing so.


The problem is they went way overboard and did not use very good judgement in designing it.


Clearly you know now that Toxic Fog as a general idea is a good idea, but clearly the execution and release of this skill was clearly a mistake, and you only have your designers to blame for this.


Two-Fold blades is also imbalanced because Ninja weapons have the same minimum damages as swords (which is balanced) but their maximum is higher than 2-handers (which is not balanced) and does 130% times your weapon damage as opposed to ss/fb which does 100%. Also there is no penalty for failure to hit, you dont consume stamina for failing to hit.


And lastly Poison Star preventing a player from using potions for 25 seconds when the #1 efficient way for healing is by using potions knowing that it only takes 5 seconds of uninterrupted sitting to recharge this skill was also clearly overpowered.


I can see into the minds of the designers, their primary goal was not to make a balanced class, but instead was another scheme by which to try to increase your profit margin.


Ironically, trying to make a class to attract people to play and lure them into purchasing Dragonballs was a bad move because while it generated sales in the short term, in the long run it is destroying your product.


Your scheme this time around is to try to pacify those players you have irritated with a poor choice by creating another poor choice and releasing another class that I am almost certain will be even more powerful than the Ninja.


I have tried so many times to make it as simple as possible for your company to understand, but clearly they do not get it.


If you continue to ignore what your customers are trying to tell you, your company is doomed to go out of business. Maybe not tomorrow, or even in a year, but other competing companies who do a better job at listening to and pleasing their customers will absorb your player base as they get tired of being ignored.


Chances are you will continue to make poor choices, and not listen to your customers, and continue your company down the road towards its death.


A company is like a pyramid and we as customers are the base layer. Lose to many of us and you will collapse onto yourself.


To whoever is reading this, I am purposefully engineering this e-mail in such a way so that you better conceptualize the fact that many of your customers are frustrated. I have tried to be respectful, polite, intelligible, and even create an entire game design theory presentation to help you out.


I noticed after sending that presentation within the same week you put a poll up on the official site asking us if Toxic Fog should be "nerfed." I know that my presentation was not the only voice, but it was the "straw that broke the camel's back" that finally urged you to do something.


Firstly my suggestion is for Monk to NOT be released in 1.0, but that later at the discretion of the community, if players agree to it after it has been released in 2.0 for awhile, then perhaps we could have monk introduced to 1.0.




But more importantly is this:


To sum up the primary purpose of this email is to simply state the success of your company ultimately will come down to this:


Success = Begin to more interactively listen to the community, and design your products based on well thought out ideas revolving around the thought processes generated from the community.


Failure = Ignore most everything the community is trying to tell you, and make your own decisions in ignorance to what we are trying to communicate to you.


By the way I have worked a Helpdesk before, so I know the difference between genuinely listening to somebody, and blowing them off with a generic response.


"Greetings,

Thanks for contacting Conquer Online Service.

We have already forward this email to our designers. We highly appreciate your support to Conquer Online.

Sincerely
Conquer Online Service"


If all I receive is something similar to that I'm smart and educated enough to know that your blowing me off. I know that more than likely you didn't send the idea to the "designers" and simply just lied to shut your customers up so they stop bothering you. If an idea sounds good then you should send it to the designers and acknowledge that you did so.


But if it sounds absolutely terrible, you as the helpdesk should be the first line of defense and review the ideas and if they honestly sound like a waste of your time, you should politely say "we have reviewed your ideas and feel you should work on them some more before we send them to our designers. Thank You."


When I worked a Helpdesk, many times I respond back to the inquirer and ask them specific and pertinent questions to get a better idea of what they were trying to communicate to me.


You are a company which is comprised of human beings who all have the power of choice, you can simply choose to ignore what I am trying to convey to you, or you can choose to ask more questions to see if what I have to say is useful.


Your choice.
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Old 12-10-2009, 15:06   #34
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And just in case you STILL don't get it...

service@conqueronline.com replies then I reply once more:

Bravo, you made the right choice, it was also a politically correct response.


With that response now I can take that a step further in trying to open your understanding up even further...


You described that not everyone thinks alike, not everyone's goals are always the same, sometimes various opinions do not match the "vision" that your company has..


This is the EXACT problem I am trying to help you understand...


The problem is not that people are different, absolutely not. This variability is what allows room for creativity, versatility, and flexibility. Rather the problem is that we do not know what is on your mind...what your vision is...


If we as community members can not see your vision, then how often do you think we will be successful at making proper suggestions in attempting to guide that vision? It is like a blind man trying to lead a blind man..., its "possible" but realistically just not going to work. We realistically can not try to guide you in any way because we continue to be blinded to what your vision is, where your company's destination is.


But what if we could see your vision? Imagine if a good portion of the community who takes the time to collaborate were able to see your vision, see what your upcoming projects are (to an extent) and know specifically what is being theorized and proposed.


Imagine if a good portion of the community was able to participate in the entire design process and articulation of the Ninja class, I would be willing to make a large bet with you that it would have been a tremendous success because players would have observed Toxic Fog before it was released and said "oh....50% damage every 3 seconds...thats ridiculous...they should lower that..." What would have then happened is your designers could collaborate amongst themselves and go "oh...maybe they are right...maybe we need to rethink this some more...maybe it should do 20% damage every 3 seconds...or maybe it should last in total only 30 seconds...or maybe a skill should be invented to prevent it or remove it..."


My prediction is that your designers who have the monopoly on the information concerning everything about monk, are statistically doomed for releasing another imbalanced class that the majority of players will dislike.


Why?


My reasoning for that is simply due to observation of the release of Ninja...I'm observing the same patterns again, so I am inferring a high chance of failure.


But this not need be the case.


Now I do understand you would want the "element of surprise" factor of course in releasing things, I understand that. But at the same time you do need some proper input from your community.


I in all seriousness would propose for their to be a beta test server for all the patches you release. You may say you already have one, but what is the point if ONLY the designers can observe and test it? I would say this is one of the ways in which to let a small portion of the dedicated community observe and test your upcoming releases before you finalize them as releases. This way if their is any excessive disdain for something, you will find out on a small scale BEFORE it gets implemented on a massive scale and it is too late.


Also in all seriousness, I know CindyZ uses the suggestions forum located at bbs.co.91.com, but why not have the entire design team each create a forum account and regularly collaborate on there.


My vision would be to see that the designers themselves can put out their own suggestions. They could also observe other community member's suggestions.


But most importantly, it would be a proper place for them to respectfully agree and/or disagree with people and explain to us WHY they disagree so we can rethink our ideas.


See I try sometimes to submit my ideas on the Helpdesk, but this is not really the best place for this because the Helpdesk is obligated to say or do whatever it takes to "please the customer." But the suggestions area would be a perfect place for a developer to look at a suggestion, post a reply and say "I agree with this idea..." or "I agree with this idea...however I disagree with this.." or even "I disagree with this altogether because..."


What I am trying to explain is that I am eager and willing to do my part, but if all I get is "we have forwarded your idea to the designer" that does not help very much.


What if my idea actually is a "poor" idea? I need a proper place to throw out my idea and get proper feedback, even if sometimes I have to be told that "this idea really is not very good at all sorry to say..."


Helpdesk is not that place for sure because its obligated by the ideals of "customer service."


But perhaps if people like myself actually got the chance for developers to observe our suggestions in a public arena such as the suggestions forum and publically agree or disagree and explain why, it gives us players who spend time thinking about the products we use a chance to learn from our mistakes. Otherwise, we keep making the same mistakes over and over...


I know there is an occasional moderator that will observe a suggestion, however I know from talking to them that they really are just a glorified user, it is nothing like having an opportunity to exchange ideas with the designers...


Oh and to answer your statement about listening to all suggestions, I find that to be partially untruthful, either that or you simply failed to at least acknowledge the suggestions that deserve to at least be acknowledged.


I want you to observe this thread located here:


Should Ninja be in 1.0?



Let me remind you that this thread was created about 2 months before your release of Classic Conquer and before you announced it to the public.


By the way I created that thread with the specific intent to figure out what we as the Classic CO community wanted in concern to the Ninja class as it was of course posted under the Classic CO section.


Observing the amount of votes and the high approval rating, I see it as a failure on your end for not even attempting to address or acknowledge this thread which I myself created which now very clearly shows we were against having Ninja in Classic Conquer.


And the reason people did not want the Ninja in 1.0 had nothing to do with Toxic Fog, this thread was made just after you announced that there would NOT be toxic fog on the Ninja and I myself made it clear that Toxic Fog is going to be removed.


The main reason we did not want Ninja in 1.0 was not actually because we do not like the Ninja class, but because it is still very imbalanced even with Toxic Fog removed.


I can get into some of the reasons and show some evidence for why Classic CO players did not want Ninja, but this email has grown to be quite long enough as it is.


If you care to hear more specific reasons as to why many of us feel Ninja is still imbalanced I will leave that choice up to you.
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Old 12-10-2009, 15:11   #35
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i appreciate your effort majin vegeta, keep it up
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Old 12-10-2009, 15:51   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thehempknight View Post
What I want in this thread, is the players to state their expectations, hopes, and fears about the new Monk class that will be coming out next year.
I know there hasn't been much released yet, save for some skills and such, but I'm more concerned about your thoughts about what you are expecting from this next class, what you think it should include or be for, and any fears or concerns you have about its inclusion.

So that's what I want. This is your chance to really get your voices heard, and maybe we'll be able to make this one a fine addition to the team.

Now for you guys, the only special item I want to add would be, should the new class be included or not? I can already see the purists ready to pounce on that one, but you should honestly consider it, and have opinions or reasoning to support your thoughts. So, lets have it....
I can't wait! It'll be a new class to exploit for botting just like Ninja is. Instead of exploiting FS, the bot makers can exploit the new monk skill. Or better yet, both!
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Old 12-10-2009, 16:11   #37
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How much you wanna bet that hemp will ignore what Vegeta is saying.
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Old 12-10-2009, 23:47   #38
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Originally Posted by Lamb View Post
How much you wanna bet that hemp will ignore what Vegeta is saying.
He already has. If it's not 100% pro-TQ, it's ignored.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:17   #39
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Fix ninja first, then we'll talk

the more classes the better imo, more variation. But we all know how good TQ is in balancing.
my opinion is like the rest of the thread, no monks until you guys clean up your previous mess first.
which means revamping a lot of stuff

hemp, if we have no choice and the monk class WILL come regardless, please tell us so. Then we have plenty of time to discuss the skills and how we are going to do it, but if there still is that option about "no monk in classic co (yet)", tick it for now.

ninjas are not even finished;

-no rb wep
-no super effects
-no rb mob
-twofoldblades reduction in classic

Last edited by *~panda~*; 12-11-2009 at 03:23.
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:24   #40
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Originally Posted by ronnie97 View Post
why cant you guys even consider it? im not saying i want monks on classic either. but you guys cry and cry and continue crying about ninja's and other classes. why?
This is supposed to be "classic". Fuck patching this up to 2.0

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i appreciate your effort majin vegeta, keep it up
This

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Originally Posted by MrRingo View Post
no monks will be terrible.

http://bbs.co.91.com/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=234

that and lets face it, someone pointed out, lets kill 32 mobs, then while xp is still up kill our level 130+'s and gain like 40 levels an xp skill. That sounds fun AND fair.

as for a juggleing move that is aoe. OK so lets take firecircle, make it hit people in the air, AND lets make it hit everyone multiple times. Now lets make the person using it full double socket sdg 130 and we have a 1 hit move to kill an entire screen full of people. I like where this is going dont you? fucking fail

now lets put all that aside and steal from wow resistance's and auras. Your telling me I can now negaite damage done to me from spells just by haveing this passive skill on? Who isint going to use this class?

lets play another game, Im a monk and i just palmed your face, your now directly in front of me stunned. I don't care how good you were at dodging fires, fast blade, or twin fold, you fail now. GG



When ninjas came out 90pct of all servers made one, 10pct of all servers immediately realized they were op and botted themselves 130-130-130 ninjas. 20pct of the original 90 gave up and quit the game when they saw the ridiculousness that ninjas entailed. and the other 60pct continued leveling their ninjas in hopes that 1 day they will do more than 1's to respective +12 characters on their servers.

History repeats itself, and Monks if released will now embody the "conquer" experience. You will either have to be a pure Monk, a Monk-War- Whatever. or a Wat/Tro/Nin-War-Monk. Im so glad they take into consideration the months and years people put into making their characters, that becomes completely worthless in the face of a non-rb new class.
Aaaand this.
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:47   #41
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I think all you people are devastating for this game.
For one you prob not the supporters of TQ, for two you have no clue what can be good for this game or what not. Every new thing is dismissed instant, while it develop the game and keeps the game fun. what yah think will become of this game in a year or so if you just had 130-130-130 chars and gws would be made by 10 maybe less people in a server. everyone would quit cause there was no fun in playing this way.

GW's always been made by just a handfull persons and maybe 100 waters whatever lvl.

A new char not be in any way unfair to the way of playing, especial something like a monk. I am not expecting any overpowered skills on a monk especial since TQ definitly realises fog wasn't really helpfull for the game.
Only thing Monk will do is more people start a new char with a monk wich will lead to more income for TQ. This will mean they would never put it on hold and you better get some good input or just shut up.

For me i got no clue what to expect from a monk, with ninja i had the feeling it could be a strong char. But a monk, just implent it there have been tons of suggestions on the other topics for skills. so just look at the skills TQ likes best.

Making another topic could end up in everyone complaining they don't want monk or like a dozen of the same oppinions given before on other threads.
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dragon_hunter tro-war-fire 130-130-132 back i guess
DragonslayeR war -war-war 130-130-136 back i guess( War King)
Dragon_hunter wat-war-war 130-132-132 loafing around
dragonhunter98 wat-tro-arch 110-130-130 waiting patiently
Force nin-war-wat 130-130-122 waiting on target destination
ForcE tro-war 130-125 outclassed
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:36   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonhunter98 View Post
I think all you people are devastating for this game.
For one you prob not the supporters of TQ, for two you have no clue what can be good for this game or what not. Every new thing is dismissed instant, while it develop the game and keeps the game fun. what yah think will become of this game in a year or so if you just had 130-130-130 chars and gws would be made by 10 maybe less people in a server. everyone would quit cause there was no fun in playing this way.

GW's always been made by just a handfull persons and maybe 100 waters whatever lvl.

A new char not be in any way unfair to the way of playing, especial something like a monk. I am not expecting any overpowered skills on a monk especial since TQ definitly realises fog wasn't really helpfull for the game.
Only thing Monk will do is more people start a new char with a monk wich will lead to more income for TQ. This will mean they would never put it on hold and you better get some good input or just shut up.

For me i got no clue what to expect from a monk, with ninja i had the feeling it could be a strong char. But a monk, just implent it there have been tons of suggestions on the other topics for skills. so just look at the skills TQ likes best.

Making another topic could end up in everyone complaining they don't want monk or like a dozen of the same oppinions given before on other threads.
this is supposed to be Classic co, take the hint.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:12   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miyavi View Post
From what I heard, countering the ninja skill Toxic Fog is pretty much all Monks are good for.

Since there's no toxic fog on CCO, I can't really see a reason to add this class in game.



On top of that, I'd like CCO to not to be updated at all. Just to prevent it from becoming another CO 2.0
This.

No Monks!
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Old 12-11-2009, 12:34   #44
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No Monk. Ninja's retarded enough as it is, don't need to screw it up that much more.

Not too fond of sounding like an 8 year old calling Ninja's retarded, but that's as clear as it can be made.
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Old 12-11-2009, 14:28   #45
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Talking

Sound like an excellent idea ...

Has anyone come up with a bot/hack for this class yet?

Send me a link .... pay good $$$$$$

Quote:
Originally Posted by thehempknight View Post
What I want in this thread, is the players to state their expectations, hopes, and fears about the new Monk class that will be coming out next year.
I know there hasn't been much released yet, save for some skills and such, but I'm more concerned about your thoughts about what you are expecting from this next class, what you think it should include or be for, and any fears or concerns you have about its inclusion.

So that's what I want. This is your chance to really get your voices heard, and maybe we'll be able to make this one a fine addition to the team.

Now for you guys, the only special item I want to add would be, should the new class be included or not? I can already see the purists ready to pounce on that one, but you should honestly consider it, and have opinions or reasoning to support your thoughts. So, lets have it....
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