View Poll Results: Give Archers 2 Sub-class Choices @ Level 70?
Sub-Classes sounds like a good idea 12 52.17%
Archers should stay the same 11 47.83%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-16-2011, 20:35   #1
Cloudz00x
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Giving Archers 2 Sub-class Choices @ Level 70

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rik_GTi View Post
When u get to Lvl 50 (or whatever it is) at your promotion as archer u should be able to choose from 2 job directions either Hunter Archer (classic archer we have now) or say like Assassin archer which is built more for pvp and not as good at hunting and plvling noobs...Just a thought as loads of people are moaning about archer power (which i agree is weak) this would be best way to get over this i think...
Piggy backing on this topic since an in depth detail is needed to get the idea moving

Branch Archers into 2 sub-classes at Level 70 since this is where the most decisive skills and decisions are made for any class.

The Archer class npc would give all archers who have met the requirements the ability to choose between 2 sub-classes. An Assassin Style archer (for Arguments sake we will keep the title assassin archer) and the other sub-class would be devoted to the ability to kill monsters at a good rate.

Lets take care of the easiest part of the task. Archers at the moment personify the ability to monster hunt at a great speed. So the only thing that needs to be done in my opinion si to get rid of any ability that enhances the archer for pvp purposes.

Skills to remove from Power leveling archers
Intensify
Rapid Fire

Other aspects to change:
Since Archers can do a decent amount of dmg to Trojans and other players with BP lower then them. We would change the dmg ratio for Bow to incorporate into a more monster hunter style.

This current build has Archers using 256 Agility to maintain there Bow usage, which should be kept the same.


Now the aspects of Assassin style archer

Skills to remove from Assassin Archer
Scatter
Fly

Change of current abilities:
-Intensify will not be lost when moving around. It would now be a mobile skill.
This 2 skills are primarily the main concern when pvping against others. Fly should be removed as to equal the playing field for all classes, since the main purpose of this build is for PvP. Don't think anyone would complain here And the removal of scatter removes the ability to monster hunt and to attack without aiming at a target when pvping.

Now to change the whole aspect of Assassin archers, Agility to me is in turn used for Bow and gaining the aspect of Flying. Alot of agility? being agile and light as a feather right, Dexterity in its essence.

For Assassin style Archers the main attribute being used is Strength. Agility is negated at this point due to not having fly or usage of bow. Now with that in mind lets introduce the pvp style weapon that we will call the cross bow. We can completely to a 180 on this and have the requirements set for 256 Strength and 74 agility to use the weapon. There would be restrictions placed on the weapon so the power leveling archers cant use it, which would be decided via promotion.

We can take another venue and leave the cross bow with no strength require so that way Archers can now place more points into vitality and meet Monks, Trojans and other high Health characters on an even playing field.

The changes to make these 2 sub-classes are already in the system, Fix percentages towards skills to increase pvping ability.

Example:

Assassin Archers:
Intensify is a great tool to increase damage, i"ve tested it my self and seen it nearly double my attack from 16k dmg on a spear to 30k dmg. With that being said that was not the same as with using the bow. With the Cross Bow in mind that dmg ratio stays the same but since that would be the real dmg booster, perhaps lets remove a little % per level to even out the dmg boost done.

My main goal is not giving the ability to 1 hit anyone with archer perhaps 2-3 hits if anything. Since we have them grounded.

Recap:

Power leveling archer is fine as current archers are just do:
-Removal of pvping aspect of skills
-Lower dmg done on bow to ensure no pvping aspects
-Remove ability to wear 2handed weapons/1 handed weapons to negate any aspect of pking with an alternative weapon


Assassin Style Archer:
Remove support features:
-Fly, Scatter
-Even out Intensify dmg percentages to match current dmg done by other classes to even the field
-New Weapon Cross Bow Introduced
-Attribute Points are allotted correctly to match crossbow requirements
-Fix Health Points to match HP standards on other classes.
- Intensification (Intensify) becomes mobile


Miscellaneous:
-Adjust Archer NPC to associate different paths at level 70 and the pros/cons of choosing each subsection.
-An emerald can be used for learning the path of the assassin archer since to gain the title you need to kill Hill Monsters for the required item.
-5 Euxenite Ores are needed to gain the path of power leveling
-Before reaching level 70 have the points gained during non rb 1st life move slowly so when reaching level 70 points can be associated correctly without have any issues.
-If any part of this is implemented in the future give all archers the ability for a One (1) time choice to change or stay the same and understanding what is lost of gained.

Names to Consider:
-Would you like to follow the path of : Monster Hunter (Power leveling Archer)
-Would you like to follow the path of : Bandit (PvP Archer)
-Would you like to follow the path of : Bowman Archer ( Usage of bows for that archer)
-Would you like to follow the path of : Toxophiliy (name used to define the love for archery)




Comments and Opinions are welcome. Remember this is to start it off since the previous thread lacked the details needed.
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Old 05-17-2011, 09:10   #2
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To be honest I zoned out and just skimmed the last half.

First off for names I suggest Hunter and Sharp Shooter

I see no reason the Sharp Shooter (or assassin) should be Str based they are still archers and bow is still more about accuracy than Str (though I do understand the reason you want this)

Mobile intensify I am against unless it only applies to arrows. Lets keep this an archer class not allow them to be the biggest damaging melee class
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Old 05-17-2011, 13:47   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconan View Post
To be honest I zoned out and just skimmed the last half.

First off for names I suggest Hunter and Sharp Shooter

I see no reason the Sharp Shooter (or assassin) should be Str based they are still archers and bow is still more about accuracy than Str (though I do understand the reason you want this)

Mobile intensify I am against unless it only applies to arrows. Lets keep this an archer class not allow them to be the biggest damaging melee class
True Intensify in itself is a highly damaging skill when immobile, hence why I opted to change percentage of dmg done when fixed so it can become mobile and be as significant but doing as much dmg as twofold blades, Whirlwind Kick, or Herc.

Just to add to the significance of this poll/thread here are some quotes from others during posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephisto View Post
I'm reading it, and I'll dissect it piece by piece and put it in my report and see how my higher up thinks about this. =)

Personally I think this is pretty good, this, definitely, is the real in-depth details to the raw concept of two subclasses for a non-OP class Archer. Way to go mate.

But right now, if the Archer was split into two subsections, the only question that begs would be, what if everyone seeks to fight instead of leveling up, cause this game is all about PvP, if being a Hunter Archer couldn't get the players what they want, that'll be a useless subsection. We should take that into consideration, everyone wants to be strong enough to fend off the opponents, regardless of how weak compared to a stronger class they are.

And Hunter Archer will be the weakest link in the whole chain, and I doubt there'd be many players selecting to go that route.

Thoughts?
I see your point and its definitely valid, the major issue for leveling is all the bot programs that are out there now. Which made archers obsolete in the leveling fashion. Now they can just go on a ninja for fatal-strike or Trojan with cyclone and Warrior for superman. The power leveling days of archers have died. So this imbalance also needs to be corrected to put in place what archers were designed to do by TQ.

But as for a solution perhaps not downgrade the power leveling side of archers as drastic as i made it seem, but make it so that if they wish to participate in PvP that it will be a grueling task and hard to do so. Hence why i stated that during the decision to choose either the lifestyle of Monster hunting or PvP, that it is well detailed and understood that that subclass is designated for that aspect.

Now lets say an Archer wishes to revert to a PvP style and is tired of Power leveling we still have reincarnation to fix any troubles that may occur


Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Matt~ View Post
This is great, you did all the hard work that Rik wouldnt.
For the new assassins class, you will have to have new attribute points for promotions, so i have thought i'd help you out on that one. Note, because of the major differences, i would say that you chose which archer class to go at level 40 promotion, the same as taos chose.


Str Agi Vit Spi
Archer
12 35 5 0
Nizari Archer
60 45 22 0
Alav***299; Archer
100 55 62 0
Dawudi Archer
150 65 92 0
Assassin Master
170 75 92 0

As you can see, I have not only gone more strength based, but i have put more emphasis on vitality. My thoughts for this are to have only 1 requirement for crossbow, and that is strength, and to put it in line with others, 176 strength to wield 115+ crossbows. Agility, would be optional, but would certainly be needed for promotions.

(i have also renamed the promotion names, these are actually famous assassin group names throughout history that i found using Wikipedia)
Im loving the set attribute points. You matches exactly how I hypothesize the points would be distributed mainly focusing on strength and vitality and if there was an imbalance allotting to agility to level it out.
I also like the names very unique, only one I would have to disagree with is the last one Assassin Master. Only due to the fact I wasn't trying to steal the thunder of the ninja class since they are the true "Assassins" in the game. Was trying to divert from using anything in the title that involved the word assassin but just for examples sake i did use it.
Again great job on adding on to this, I hope this does go through.
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Old 05-19-2011, 09:22   #4
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FACT: Have you ever used a lvl 70 bow on your 130 character without agility?

agility is not only a requirement but also an essential aspect of archers hit rate.

an archer with the standard 5 agility would never hit an enemy, much like a ninja with 8 agility never hits with melee.

this is why archers are so deadly as a melee, they can run up and hit you with ease.

so no, you need a different aspect.

my idea would be for sharp shooter, make intensify mobile, make rapid fire 30 stamina, if you cant kill you can stun
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I dont know if its even possible, but how about creating a forum section where people could write their suggestions, and other forum users could vote for them. And if any suggestion would be good some forum super mod could forward it to designers or someone. You could call it suggestions forum.
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Old 10-20-2011, 03:08   #5
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im not going to vote but i do agree archers need to be fixed. instead of making 2 different types of archers just keep the one. increase the attack. i have suggested in the past new arrow type (Jace Arrow) lol. speed arrow has only 100 attack. could create new arrows with higher attack or simply just add more attack to bow. also need to increase how much attack increases when +ing the weapon. i already 1 scatter basilisk now so i dont see what a little more damage increase will do verse monsters for me, besides plvling is dead now. hitting someone with my bp for 200 damage is pretty sad when they 1 shot me because i have both low hp and defense.
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Old 10-20-2011, 14:02   #6
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I did not Vote because it has some merit but i also don't like the idea of totally changing the character class
I totally understand the idea but i think its the wrong way to go myself being an archer.

To fix the problems with archer would be simple increase Their defense (make on par with other classes), make Agility points give HP like strength (To even out HP differences), and the biggest complaint of low dmg done is easy to change as well Decrease dodge from boots.

Give mobile intensify but remove XP Fly so you have to choose to Intensify or Fly but not both

Perfect Example:
301 BP Archer against 304 BP Monk w/ lvl 10 +7 Boots Dmg = 2-3k
301 BP Archer against 304 BP Monk w/ lvl 129 +7 Boots Dmg = 69
(Dmgs show are without the lvl 120 Boot Dragon Soul)

Dodge is what kills the Archers attack, I'd be willing to bet if you just changed the dodge archers would be happy and not complain about Low HP and Low Defense. Personally if I could kill people using skill I wouldn't mind low HP or Def. Its just insanely frustrating when you can hit someone harder with a Lvl 15 blade than with a lvl 132 bow (P6 Dragon Soul) because of dodge.

Sorry for Rant on your post. But if you cruise around Forums a lot of players are complaining of Archer weakness and archer was part of core 4 class types (when i started 7 years ago).
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301 (306) BP (with Mentor)
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 131Ears Perm P2 DS -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 134 Necklace -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 132 Beads -1 dmg (x2)
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 67 Arch Coat Perm P2 DS -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 129 Boots -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 136 Ring -1 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc STG Fan -1 dmg
Super +7 2-Soc RGG Tower -1 dmg
Steed +6
Super +6 Riding Crop -1 dmg
Gourd -1 dmg

Last edited by Rezz; 10-20-2011 at 14:04.
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Old 10-20-2011, 15:47   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rezz View Post
To fix the problems with archer would be simple increase Their defense (make on par with other classes), make Agility points give HP like strength (To even out HP differences), and the biggest complaint of low dmg done is easy to change as well Decrease dodge from boots.
In your support archers now have the lowest def, where before a coat at lvl 120 vs a robe at 120 the coat had about 370 more def, now at higher levels, lets say 140, a coat vs a robe, the robe now has about 200 more def. These numbers don't even factor in the extras from +s on gear.
The part about agility, agility does add a small amount of HP just like strength and spirit, strength, spirit, and agility all add 3 HP per point, and vitality adds 24 per point (except to tros who gain a slight amount more.) So, when comparing hp, all classes have the chance to get the same except for trojans who can gain more.
Now to address dodge, i do have to agree with you on that one, i have used a super +3 soc bow against people with low boots and done large amounts of damage, but once you get boots up to just 120, that damage decreased to almost nothing.

Still, to make an archer into two classes like a tao, im not entirely sure thats the correct path.
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Old 10-21-2011, 05:47   #8
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oh k here we go with another one of these threads...

2 classes of archer's would be redundant

fix what you have.... just like every other class...which still needs to be tweaked

all rchers need is...

1.mobile intensify ... no dmg changes just being able to use it while moving...
(ps) when fixed it actually does a bit more than doubble your dmg sometimes when I get exp fly vs a tro ill go up there charge intensify drop down to my melee weps and get like a 15K hit with mine where as my normal dmg is like 5-7K ... don't get me started on nix and crits<---( ps mobile intensify was my idea =-) just type mobile intensify in the search box and you can see all the details)

2. oh k... I have more physical defence, and magic defence than alot of tros I know... keep in mind yeah some of their stuff isnt over 130 yet but its pretty close... typically the tros i know use ears because they need the magic defence to fight with taoists... yet they still take more dmg from taos and can pot it off... my archer has over 8K physical defence and according to the number on the screen (yes i know it means almost nothing) 143% mdefence.... the thing we need here is simply about a 30-50 pct hp increase...all the dmg values in the game have changed. the 11.5K hp I can get up to .... without realloting was fine untill everything... even a tao, which is only like 2 bp higher than me landing a 12K crit, or a trojan hitting me with an aoe for 2X my hp, meanwhile even with my crappy 270 bp trojan I who I did realot on can stand in just fine vs a higher bp one because they can take the hit.... so basically 30-50 pct more hp

3. remove star arrow and replace it with a counter type skill like ck, and reflect, only it simply lets you not take dmg, and does not do dmg to your attacker, with an activation rate of like 50 pct.... every other class has an easy way to 1 hit us so therefore it should at least take them awhile to get that hit in

4. Remove the stupid strength requirement to wear armor and use bows >.< no other class requires 2 attributes to use their weapon... unless maybe monk i havent played in 2 weeks though so I dont remember lolz

I've been playing this class a long time, and the rcher is pretty much the exact same as when I started, aside from the stuff that all other classes received during tq's waves of upgrades, and buffs the only thing the rch got was a pure skill that hits about the same as a normal critical shot...
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super 2 soc sgg +6 tower
super 2 soc stg +6 fan -1 dmg
super +6 riding crop
super 1 soc sdg +5 boots -3 dmg
super 2 soc sdg +5 perm p3 ring
super 2 soc Sdg +8 perm p6 coat
super 2 soc sdg +12 archer hat perm p5
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super 1 soc sdg +5 necklace
Steed +6
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currently 306 bp 310...my mentor came back from a 2 year hiatus lmao

Last edited by Strilter; 10-21-2011 at 05:51.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:42   #9
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Yes double standard on bow for Agility and strength also weakens the Archer as noted no other class has double requirement and even worse Tao's have no requirement for equips accept Level so they can jack HP through the roof.


I'd be willing to loose XP fly and XP Arrow Rain for a 50% reduction in Dodge. All y'all out there are thinking OMFG 50% is huge. No its really not Super Level 10 boots have 10 Dodge while Super level 129 boots have 84 dodge and that's without the +'s. Reduce lvl 129 boots to 42 dodge and keep + dodge the same and archer will become more powerful but certainly not OP. as stated earlier my archer at 301 BP hit for 2-3k with BOW against a monk with 304 BP but level 10 boots and after same monk upgraded boots to 129 I hit him with 60-70.
I hear it now everyone compaining that Archers would be OP if they hit for 2-3k each but ask yourself how much does Tao hit with at same or faster speed? Also Remove scatter as a PVP attack make scatter only attack Mobs solves newb archers sitting and scatter all over.

Maybe should removed dodge all together from boots and change them to Agility instead Extreme thought I know.
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Rezz - Arch-Arch-Arch-Nin-War-Arch-Monk-Monk-Monk - 130 - 133 - 137
301 (306) BP (with Mentor)
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 131Ears Perm P2 DS -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 134 Necklace -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 132 Beads -1 dmg (x2)
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 67 Arch Coat Perm P2 DS -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 129 Boots -3 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc Lvl 136 Ring -1 dmg
Super +6 2-Soc STG Fan -1 dmg
Super +7 2-Soc RGG Tower -1 dmg
Steed +6
Super +6 Riding Crop -1 dmg
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:58   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconan View Post
To be honest I zoned out and just skimmed the last half.

First off for names I suggest Hunter and Sharp Shooter

I see no reason the Sharp Shooter (or assassin) should be Str based they are still archers and bow is still more about accuracy than Str (though I do understand the reason you want this)

Mobile intensify I am against unless it only applies to arrows. Lets keep this an archer class not allow them to be the biggest damaging melee class
Agreed, especially about intensify. Make it mobile idc, but make it so that it resets when switching to a melee weapon.

About the crossbow idea and being able to 2-3 hit ppl... I thought 1 OP ranged class would be enough since fires are still not even close to balanced.
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you take the prize of most retarded person on forums since unstop got banned.
I'm pretty sure bothunter already surpassed him At least unstop didn't pretend he was from the UK while everyone can see bothunter can't talk English

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LOL. Are you completely stupid???
I'm not using my mouth Dumbtard.
I use fingers on here.
Since you can't hear me talking over internet can you?
No... You can't.
His stupidity knows no limit
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