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Old 04-08-2010, 17:22   #368
CheekyPunk27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deveno View Post
Yes, I have read the Bible. I prefer the King James version, by and large, even though some of the wordings sound archaic, and a little forced. The newer translations just sound a little too "vernacular" (and perhaps that's the point).

I don't believe I ever made the assertion that I believe Christians are (or even should be) perfect. My point is there are many people who profess to be Christians, but don't seem to take their professed faith all that seriously. In light of this (and I am not meaning to say you yourself belong in this group), perhaps they should re-examine what their beliefs actually are. A little introspection can't hurt.
I agree that some people don't take it seriously, but we probably differ on what 'seriously' means. It seems from your previous post that you mean something like, 'they don't follow those laws in the OT about killing people who work on the sabbath'.

The short answer is that Christians live under the covenant of grace, and not the old covenant of the law. We don't however, disregard the Law (Jewish law stuff), the Law is good. However, Jesus is the fullfilment of the law, he brings completion to it and gives it the full meaning. The covenant of the Law is but a shadow of the covenant of grace - Jesus brings the picture into HD.

That probably doesn't answer anything very well, but it's a bit confusing. I had a church camp a year or two about this topic based on the book of Romans, so if you want to try to understand it a bit more, Romans would be a good place to start.

Quote:
One of the more troubling aspects of Christianity is the concept of Grace. For example, according to Christian doctrine, if Adolph Hitler had made a sincere confession and repentence of his sins before he died, hey-he gets Heaven, too! There seems to be a conflict between the concepts of forgiveness and justice. Both forgiveness and justice seem like worthwhile things to believe in, and try to practice. I just don't see how you can have absolute justice and forgiveness at the same time.

To be a little more pointed about it, if one is using Jesus as a crutch to excuse their own shortcomings, I can't see that as a truly spiritual way of life.
I think you're spot on. It's a scandal, that someone could commit so much sin and rebellion with God, yet if they sincerely confess, repent, believe and live with Jesus as their Saviour and Lord, they can be forgiven and enter heaven!

It's always ridiculous.

But it depends on which side you're standing on. If you're a Hitler, the concept is still utterly ridiculous, but if you truly believe blah blah.. etc. etc. then you're they happiest person on earth.

The Bible, however, says there is only one side.
There is no side of "well, I've lived a good life, and look at that dude there, what a sinner!" (See Romans beginning, and Jesus story about the Pharisee and sinner praying in the temple)

As far as sin and rebellion against God is concerned, we're all in the same boat . While some sin is kinda worse than others, sin is still sin, and even a little bit makes us unable to be in relationship with God. Just as fletch said ages ago, a little poo or a lot of poo... either way you're not gonna eat that cupcake.

In order to truly understand and appreciate God's grace, you first need to truly understand and appreciate you're own sinfulness as described in the Bible. Remember, this idea of grace comes from the Bible, so you must read it in the context that it gives - ie. that all people are terrible sinners.

Now, how can you have absolute Justice and Absolute grace?

The answer is Jesus.

If a hitler person goes to heaven, it's not as if his sins have gone unpunished. That person receives absolute grace and forgiveness from God, and Jesus receives/d the full punishment for his sin on the Cross.

It's like a kid who gets a speeding fine (but on a much bigger scale). He has no way of paying it, so his parents pay it. He receives grace, and the parents bare the brunt of the punishment. The price is payed, justice is served, yet the kid receives grace.

In the same way, we as humans sin so much against God, and we have no way of repaying it but to face judgement and death ourselves. So God sends His Son Jesus and bears the wrath and punishment himself - justice is served, and grace is freely given.

Quote:
To be a little more pointed about it, if one is using Jesus as a crutch to excuse their own shortcomings, I can't see that as a truly spiritual way of life.
Technically, Jesus is a crutch, because we're all broken people and need help.

But certainly, excuse is the wrong word to use.

But remember also, Christianity isn't concerned about spirituality, or living a spiritual life. It's concerned about grace. Living a spiritual life has got to do with doing good works - which has nothing to do with grace.

Repentance and excuses are incompatible. Repentance starts first with acknowledging sin. And repentance isn't a one off act or something you say. It's a lifestyle.
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