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Snyder 03-08-2010 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11017917)
Well, people are the ones that wrote the bible too, are they not? The book in which all the fairytales you believe in are gathered?

Some of them were written down several hundred years after 'messiah' supposedly existed.. by people, that is?

People are also the ones that have altered this book of fairytales across centuries to fit their own schemes, in order to more effectively oppress people and do whatever they see fit?

At this point in time, you have no proper way of knowing which of the fairytales are 'authentic' (if any of them ever even were) and which of them are altered to the point of being irrelevant?

Yet you believe in these fairytales, which have been altered by people. Funny isn't it.

Well techincally they held the pen, but they didnt write the words. And i have yet to read about a get rich scheme in it. As for noah ark and moses parting the sea they have all been proven as fact. At least those two i know of.

Arronax 03-08-2010 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryuzaki (Post 11018053)
You might be a nicer, more kind person than Arronax, if that's what you mean by a better person, but no one on forums can say that for sure, because no ones knows both you and Arronax in person. But, what we all can conclude for certain is that he is far smarter than you are.

Would you believe me if I said I'm the nicest guy around irl? :<

Arronax 03-08-2010 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheekyPunk27 (Post 11018133)
Examples or evidence? I know you are intelligent, and I respect your opinion, but there are a lot of lies on the internet ;)


Again, apart from yours and others opinion, the evidence for this is not very much.



There are a lot of lies on the internet, that's true.

[this part is directed both at mitsu and snyder:]You don't have to search very far to find examples of people exploiting christianity for their own benefit. An example of this is purgatory. I'm not sure how catholics do it nowadays, but historically you had to pay the church to be able to pass by purgatory :) Else you would suffer eternally blahblah.

Since we're at it, I'm curious of a few things:

Why does evil exist? Why does hell 'exist'? Why did god put the apple tree in the garden of evil (the one adam and eve went omnomnom @)

And what I wonder the most: Why do christians cringe whenever you mention the old testament? Is it not part of the bible? Who are WE to decide which parts of the bible we want to follow and not? =)



Quote:

Originally Posted by Snyder (Post 11018150)
Well techincally they held the pen, but they didnt write the words. And i have yet to read about a get rich scheme in it. As for noah ark and moses parting the sea they have all been proven as fact. At least those two i know of.

The authenticity of 'miracles' is beyond the scope of what I intended to discuss, but if you insist:

Gief proof that any miracles have ever happened~


And you don't seriously believe that the words that you find in the bible today are the same as the ones that were once written down in the "first bible" ? If you do, you're too stupid to bother conversing with.

BuddhaIncarnate 03-08-2010 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018293)
There are a lot of lies on the internet, that's true.

[this part is directed both at mitsu and snyder:]You don't have to search very far to find examples of people exploiting christianity for their own benefit. An example of this is purgatory. I'm not sure how catholics do it nowadays, but historically you had to pay the church to be able to pass by purgatory :) Else you would suffer eternally blahblah.

Since we're at it, I'm curious of a few things:

Why does evil exist? Why does hell 'exist'? Why did god put the apple tree in the garden of evil (the one adam and eve went omnomnom @)

And what I wonder the most: Why do christians cringe whenever you mention the old testament? Is it not part of the bible? Who are WE to decide which parts of the bible we want to follow and not? =)





The authenticity of 'miracles' is beyond the scope of what I intended to discuss, but if you insist:

Gief proof that any miracles have ever happened~


And you don't seriously believe that the words that you find in the bible today are the same as the ones that were once written down in the "first bible" ? If you do, you're too stupid to bother conversing with.

I've explained the Old Testament as it pertains to Christians.

I claim it is a history of the Jews, leading up to Jesus's birth.

You then try to make Deuteronomy relevant by saying Jesus came to complete the Law.

The law is that all sin is punishable by death. Death is separation from God. Jesus fulfilled the law by taking on our sins, so that we don't have to be separated from God with our sins. We may die of the flesh, but we don't have to die spiritually.

That is the Christian viewpoint.

As to the apple, God granted Humans freewill.

How can you make the right decision if you can't make the wrong one?

God wants Humans to choose him.

UltimateBuzz 03-08-2010 15:10

One word to yaŽll. GET A ****ING LIFE :D

Arronax 03-08-2010 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultimatebuzz (Post 11018344)
one word to yaŽll. Get a ****ing life :d

mrrrrrrrrrrgllllllllllllllllllllll.

Ryuzaki 03-08-2010 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018243)
Would you believe me if I said I'm the nicest guy around irl? :<

No, but I also wouldn't doubt it.

Arronax 03-08-2010 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11018312)
I've explained the Old Testament as it pertains to Christians.

I claim it is a history of the Jews, leading up to Jesus's birth.

You then try to make Deuteronomy relevant by saying Jesus came to complete the Law.

The law is that all sin is punishable by death. Death is separation from God. Jesus fulfilled the law by taking on our sins, so that we don't have to be separated from God with our sins. We may die of the flesh, but we don't have to die spiritually.

That is the Christian viewpoint.

As to the apple, God granted Humans freewill.

How can you make the right decision if you can't make the wrong one?

God wants Humans to choose him.

God wants humans to choose him, but if they DON'T choose him, they get to suffer eternally. Doesn't really sound like much of a fair choice to me.

Why insist on letting people decide for themselves whether or not they believe that he exists? The ONLY thing we have to go on is the bible. Nothing else. Why allow us to suffer so much in life, and then let us suffer even more in the afterlife just because we didn't accept something that clearly has been written down by man in pretty much a fairytale format?

Being the best human possible, as in being kind, giving, not greedy, not a murderer, not a liar, cheater etc isn't enough to be saved from something that god himself allows to exist? Sounds fairly retarded if you ask me.. ^^

If it's about believing, why the **** not make it a bit easier to believe? Why allow so many reasons for doubt to exist? .. Does he WANT half(?) of the population of earth to suffer in hell eternally? If so, how is this god of yours a good god exactly. :/

ChaoticArcher 03-08-2010 17:58

thats what i like about Syd, he never has a pre-chosen opinion he choses whatever is logic and seems right to him whatever the situation is even if it backfired for me in this case

PS~ good job on making the thread real nice & give me evidence of a magical fairy with a beard living in the clouds plz

Arronax 03-08-2010 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticArcher (Post 11018555)
thats what i like about Syd, he never has a pre-chosen opinion he choses whatever is logic and seems right to him whatever the situation is even if it backfired for me in this case

PS~ good job on making the thread real nice & give me evidence of a magical fairy with a beard living in the clouds plz

You're so stupid it's almost not even funny.

ChaoticArcher 03-08-2010 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018585)
You're so stupid it's almost not even funny.

you are like shellshock you overuse a dumb sentence over and over again thinking its funny more then once but it is not the only difference is that he is cool and you are not and you aint hot either since i know you will use that dumb cool/hot quote

Arronax 03-08-2010 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticArcher (Post 11018609)
you are like shellshock you overuse a dumb sentence over and over again thinking its funny more then once but it is not the only difference is that he is cool and you are not and you aint hot either since i know you will use that dumb cool/hot quote

Sometimes it's better to shut up and let people think that you're stupid, instead of going on and removing all doubt.


Half of that post of yours didn't make any sense at all, you stupid git.

BuddhaIncarnate 03-08-2010 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018390)
God wants humans to choose him, but if they DON'T choose him, they get to suffer eternally. Doesn't really sound like much of a fair choice to me.

Why insist on letting people decide for themselves whether or not they believe that he exists? The ONLY thing we have to go on is the bible. Nothing else. Why allow us to suffer so much in life, and then let us suffer even more in the afterlife just because we didn't accept something that clearly has been written down by man in pretty much a fairytale format?

Being the best human possible, as in being kind, giving, not greedy, not a murderer, not a liar, cheater etc isn't enough to be saved from something that god himself allows to exist? Sounds fairly retarded if you ask me.. ^^

If it's about believing, why the fuck not make it a bit easier to believe? Why allow so many reasons for doubt to exist? .. Does he WANT half(?) of the population of earth to suffer in hell eternally? If so, how is this god of yours a good god exactly. :/

Think of hell like this.

You spend your whole life telling God, "Leave me alone," and God finally says, "Ok."

And Christians believe that in God's eyes, who can see your thoughts and soul, even an impure thought is enough that he can't look at you.

The whole dilemma of God and humanity is like this... Say I am making Cookies. I mix everything together following the instructions. I then add just a tiny bit of dog poop to the mix. Would you eat it?

Even just a little bit of sin is enough to corrupt your whole life product. Also, you are saying God is condemning us. He isn't. He sent Jesus to give you a free way out. All you have to do is accept it. If you say no, then God respects your decision.

CheekyPunk27 03-09-2010 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018293)
There are a lot of lies on the internet, that's true.

[this part is directed both at mitsu and snyder:]You don't have to search very far to find examples of people exploiting christianity for their own benefit. An example of this is purgatory. I'm not sure how catholics do it nowadays, but historically you had to pay the church to be able to pass by purgatory :) Else you would suffer eternally blahblah.

Ahh... first, you didn't answer my question about evidence for:
1. Books being written way after a messiah came.
2. Alterations in the texts over hundreds of years.

It's ok though. I didn't expect you to actually answer them, given that there is none at all.

I think those are the two most common misconceptions about the Bible around the internet. That is, that they were written way after dates were said to have occurred, and that they have been altered many times to change what they say. These things are simply unsupported, false, and 'lies' (used willingly or ignorantly) by people who don't actually research them themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018293)
[this part is directed both at mitsu and snyder:]You don't have to search very far to find examples of people exploiting christianity for their own benefit. An example of this is purgatory. I'm not sure how catholics do it nowadays, but historically you had to pay the church to be able to pass by purgatory :) Else you would suffer eternally blahblah.

Yep, I totally agree. Problem is, Catholics have to do a lot of twisting and stretching to pull purgatory from the Bible. It really just isn't there... invented by people... maybe they were honestly making a mistake, or maybe they were trying to get money... either way however, it's not in the Bible.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018293)
Since we're at it, I'm curious of a few things:

1. Why does evil exist?
2. Why does hell 'exist'?
3. Why did god put the apple tree in the garden of evil (the one adam and eve went omnomnom @)

4. And what I wonder the most: Why do christians cringe whenever you mention the old testament? Is it not part of the bible? Who are WE to decide which parts of the bible we want to follow and not? =)

1. I can interpret this two ways. Firstly, why does evil exist.. in the world..? Because of human sin and rebellion against God.
The second way, is why does it exist 'everywhere' or as a concept. I really don't know... it's just the opposite of Good i suppose...

2. Hell is a 'place' or state of being out of God's goodness, and under His wrath and judgment. It exists because God is a Just God, and punishes sin and rebellion against Him.

3. From a Human perspective, it's probably just as fletch said. Of course, there are many "buts" to this, I suppose. The thing you need to keep in mind, is if you're trying to understand "why", then you need to allow the rest of the Christian and Biblical worldview to also help answer that question.

4. I don't cringe. My pastors preach as much on the OT as they do the NT. And you're certainly right, we should follow the whole Bible, not one part or another part.
The reason I would "cringe" is because some people refuse to accept a Christian interpretation of the Bible, as if they (a non-Christian) is interpreting it correctly and I am not.

All that said, I believe when trying to understand someone's world view, you are doing just that. Trying to understand it. You can't tell them it's wrong... you can disagree, but you can't say it's wrong - unless of course they contradict within themselves. To me, and many people, Christianity in it's fullness as described in the Bible is perfectly coherent within itself. It only starts to not make sense when people bring in non-Christian concepts and ideas into it.



The authenticity of 'miracles' is beyond the scope of what I intended to discuss, but if you insist:

Gief proof that any miracles have ever happened~


And you don't seriously believe that the words that you find in the bible today are the same as the ones that were once written down in the "first bible" ? If you do, you're too stupid to bother conversing with.[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11018390)
God wants humans to choose him, but if they DON'T choose him, they get to suffer eternally. Doesn't really sound like much of a fair choice to me.

This is assuming an initial state of neutrality. Biblically, all people are already going to suffer eternally for rejecting God. The only choice is accept his gift of salvation.
As I said above, in order to understand and accept this... you need to understand and accept the Christian view that all people are already rejecting God and worthy of judgment.

Quote:

Why insist on letting people decide for themselves whether or not they believe that he exists? The ONLY thing we have to go on is the bible. Nothing else. Why allow us to suffer so much in life, and then let us suffer even more in the afterlife just because we didn't accept something that clearly has been written down by man in pretty much a fairytale format?

Being the best human possible, as in being kind, giving, not greedy, not a murderer, not a liar, cheater etc isn't enough to be saved from something that god himself allows to exist? Sounds fairly retarded if you ask me.. ^^

If it's about believing, why the fuck not make it a bit easier to believe? Why allow so many reasons for doubt to exist? .. Does he WANT half(?) of the population of earth to suffer in hell eternally? If so, how is this god of yours a good god exactly. :/
I like fletch's poo example.

And you're right, it is hard to believe. In fact, it's impossible... at least for man. God saves people though.

As for a miracle, I would say the most convincing one is the supposed resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I can't give 100% proof, but there is a fairly strong case for it. It just depends on how "hard" your heart is to not believing.

The evidence goes for all the possible explanations that people have proposed, and shows that you'd need a good level of 'faith' or ignorance to believe those, as they are as unlikely as the fact that Jesus did in fact resurrect.

CheekyPunk27 03-09-2010 03:55

sorry, wall o' text...

anyhow, glad we can have good discussions here without flaming.


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