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CheekyPunk27 03-10-2010 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11019947)
"God instructs Noah to board the Ark with his family, seven pairs of the birds and the clean animals, and two pairs of the unclean animals and two pairs of the unclean animals" (wiki).


Yeah, so he took at the very least 2 pairs of each species of animal with him.


Do you honestly believe this to be even remotely possible?

The Bible says "kinds". I dunno what "kinds" are, but I dont think it means species.

And anyhow... as I said before, you can't take one part of a worldview and ignore the rest.

It's like maths... you can't take one rule, and ignore others and expect it to all work out. You need to have all of them together.

I think when we read the stories, it's best to see what it's trying to say, rather than what it literally reads. I think that's the most important.

I'm not saying that it's not literal, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but certainly the Bible is trying to tell us something other than just facts or 'facts'.

If you want, read it as a fairytale, and try to figure out what is happening, and why it's happening. It does actually make sense.... Then when you compare what you learn from it with the world around you, it might start to make even more sense, and even actually look true.

BuddhaIncarnate 03-10-2010 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11019947)
"God instructs Noah to board the Ark with his family, seven pairs of the birds and the clean animals, and two pairs of the unclean animals and two pairs of the unclean animals" (wiki).


Yeah, so he took at the very least 2 pairs of each species of animal with him.


Do you honestly believe this to be even remotely possible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_LP (Post 11019984)
He does, based on the mindset, directed at you:

"If it's not possible then why come you don't have a tattoo??"

Or perhaps he's thinking something of the sort:

"I will answer you when you try to balance shoes (or a lamp, luls) on your head."

First, to LP, since that is the kind of mindset I display constantly on forums. Arronax is asking legitimate questions. Maybe at this point, you should close your mouth and use more of your ears. Also, anything I believe isn't even remotely as ludicrous as the things you Mormons believe ;)

To Arronax, one of my fundamentals of belief is that when God wants something done, it gets done. How all the animals got there, I have no idea. I wasn't there to see it. This is where faith comes in. I just have to accept some things as truth without understanding fully. Did all specific animals get to come? I don't know. I heard a pretty funny version (from a comedian I think) where the Unicorn got left, cause God didn't like it. Anything not specifically stated in the Bible, though, isn't there for a reason.

For example, what did Jesus do between being a kid and age 30? The Bible doesn't really say. He probably worked as a carpenter for his dad during that time. Is it really important? No, the focus is on his teachings, and who he is.

There are lots of things left out like this. Sometimes that is meant to let us focus more on the substance, rather than just raw data.

But to be honest, it is all just speculation on my part. Who am I to speak for God?

ChaoticArcher 03-10-2010 12:12

so everyone who believes theres a magic fairy with a beard sitting in the clouds raise your hand lol

The_LP 03-10-2010 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11020818)
First, to LP, since that is the kind of mindset I display constantly on forums. Arronax is asking legitimate questions. Maybe at this point, you should close your mouth and use more of your ears. Also, anything I believe isn't even remotely as ludicrous as the things you Mormons believe ;)

To Arronax, one of my fundamentals of belief is that when God wants something done, it gets done. How all the animals got there, I have no idea. I wasn't there to see it. This is where faith comes in. I just have to accept some things as truth without understanding fully. Did all specific animals get to come? I don't know. I heard a pretty funny version (from a comedian I think) where the Unicorn got left, cause God didn't like it. Anything not specifically stated in the Bible, though, isn't there for a reason.

For example, what did Jesus do between being a kid and age 30? The Bible doesn't really say. He probably worked as a carpenter for his dad during that time. Is it really important? No, the focus is on his teachings, and who he is.

There are lots of things left out like this. Sometimes that is meant to let us focus more on the substance, rather than just raw data.

But to be honest, it is all just speculation on my part. Who am I to speak for God?

methinks you weren't reading my post... I was saying it like it was chaos saying that stuff to arronax...

it was my point that chaos wasn't taking arro seriously. it's not really that hard to make that one out... -_-

BuddhaIncarnate 03-10-2010 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_LP (Post 11020978)
methinks you weren't reading my post... I was saying it like it was chaos saying that stuff to arronax...

it was my point that chaos wasn't taking arro seriously. it's not really that hard to make that one out... -_-

You quoted Arronax quoting me.

GG

ChaoticArcher 03-10-2010 14:52

lets forget that misunderstanding and talk about magical fairy myths again

CheekyPunk27 03-10-2010 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11020818)
This is where faith comes in. I just have to accept some things as truth without understanding fully.

Just a note on faith.

It's about not understanding fully.

Faith shouldn't be blind faith.

You don't sit on a chair with a leg missing, and have faith that it will hold you up. That's just stupid. You sit on a chair with all its legs and have faith that it will hold you up.

The faith that I, and I'm guessing fletch as well, have, is not some airy fairy random belief-because-we-want-to thing. There's good reason to have it, and what we have faith in is proven (in our minds at least) of being very worthy of our faith.

Arronax 03-10-2010 15:17

On the contrary, I really do think you guys believe in it just because you want to. Why else would you? It's certainly not because of the compelling evidence that exists.

That's kind of the point of believing I guess.




I'm a sceptic by nature. If you tell me something that sounds outrageous, I'll want : proof : that what you say is true. That approach is the one that makes the most sense, from an intellectual point of view. I wasn't raised as a christian. Nor was I raised as an atheist. It's been left up to me, and me alone to decide what I believe in.

I'm pretty sure I could never be a christian (nor a follower of any other religion), unless something drastic happens (as in god descending to earth or something like that), simply because of my nature. That won't stop me from being the best person I can (online is a exception to that rule ;F) though.


For my part, this discussion is now over. We've discussed subjects back and forth, and somehow avoided the whole IZ IN TEH BIBUL SO IZ TRRUUUEH thing that christians generally fall back on when they are losing a discussion. Instead, we've ended up with "in lack of compelling evidence of the authenticity of anything in the bible, we'll go with the "it's about faith" thing."

So there's not much moar to say here, except from "Screw you guys, I'm going home". ;F

BuddhaIncarnate 03-10-2010 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11021318)
I'm pretty sure I could never be a christian (nor a follower of any other religion), unless something drastic happens (as in god descending to earth or something like that), simply because of my nature. That won't stop me from being the best person I can (online is a exception to that rule ;F) though.

Yeah, umm, that happened and you still don't believe ;)

CheekyPunk27 03-10-2010 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11021350)
Yeah, umm, that happened and you still don't believe ;)

lol.

---

There is compelling evidence.

Let's just talk resurrection.

Here is history/fact of what happened around that time.

A man named Jesus (of Nazareth, whom his followers called the Christ) was walking around and doing some weird stuff.
The Jews and Romans had him killed.
His disciples claimed he came back to life, and they 'started' a new religion.

If Jesus did not come rise, there is absolutely no reason for Christianity to have become popular, and keep growing to become one of the biggest religions in the world today.

So, the question of did he rise, or did he not rise is a big one.

I say he did, because that's the only explanation that makes sense given what we know of history from that time.

Does anyone else have an explanation for the start of Christianity or for the missing body/empty tomb of Jesus?

Arronax 03-10-2010 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheekyPunk27 (Post 11021373)
lol.

---

There is compelling evidence.

Let's just talk resurrection.

Here is history/fact of what happened around that time.

A man named Jesus (of Nazareth, whom his followers called the Christ) was walking around and doing some weird stuff.
The Jews and Romans had him killed.
His disciples claimed he came back to life, and they 'started' a new religion.

If Jesus did not come rise, there is absolutely no reason for Christianity to have become popular, and keep growing to become one of the biggest religions in the world today.

So, the question of did he rise, or did he not rise is a big one.

I say he did, because that's the only explanation that makes sense given what we know of history from that time.

Does anyone else have an explanation for the start of Christianity or for the missing body/empty tomb of Jesus?


Bleeh, I really did want this to be a closed matter, but if you insist:
Fact: there were also several other supposed 'messiahs' walking around at the time. One of which is called Appolonius of tyana. He got crucified, and also supposedly rose from the dead.. ^^; I haven't heard of anyone worshipping HIM.


@Buddha: Did I see it? Do I see any proper evidence that such a thing ever happened?

CheekyPunk27 03-10-2010 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11021385)
Bleeh, I really did want this to be a closed matter, but if you insist:
Fact: there were also several other supposed 'messiahs' walking around at the time. One of which is called Appolonius of tyana. He got crucified, and also supposedly rose from the dead.. ^^; I haven't heard of anyone worshipping HIM.


@Buddha: Did I see it? Do I see any proper evidence that such a thing ever happened?

From wiki:
Quote:

He is also said, on many occasions to have healed the wounded and the sick, and while there is nothing which details his death, or the approximate date thereof, there are claims of resurrection.
So dunno where this crucified thing is...
And as to resurrection, just claims. Nothing quite as compelling as Jesus'.

As well, I doubt he claimed to be God or the messiah or Christ. Rather, he was just some random philosopher.

I guess you bring up a good point. The stuff about him is so vague and not very well documented. That along with the fact that he probably never tried to start something, is probably the reason nothing started.

On the contrary, Jesus claimed to be God, and he proved it by raising from the dead, and we have good reason to believe this, as did the Jews and gentiles alive at the time.

If no one worshiped Apollonius, then obviously there was no reason to: he never claimed to be worthy of worship, and these resurrection stories about him were very weak. Unlike Jesus.

Arronax 03-10-2010 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheekyPunk27 (Post 11021404)
From wiki:


So dunno where this crucified thing is...
And as to resurrection, just claims. Nothing quite as compelling as Jesus'.

As well, I doubt he claimed to be God or the messiah or Christ. Rather, he was just some random philosopher.

I guess you bring up a good point. The stuff about him is so vague and not very well documented. That along with the fact that he probably never tried to start something, is probably the reason nothing started.

On the contrary, Jesus claimed to be God, and he proved it by raising from the dead, and we have good reason to believe this, as did the Jews and gentiles alive at the time.

If no one worshiped Apollonius, then obviously there was no reason to: he never claimed to be worthy of worship, and these resurrection stories about him were very weak. Unlike Jesus.

I'm going to be a very immature asshat with you, but you will probably get the point anyways:
So I herd adolf was popular too, that doesn't mean what he claimed about the jews was true :F


//asshat

BuddhaIncarnate 03-10-2010 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11021445)
I'm going to be a very immature asshat with you, but you will probably get the point anyways:
So I herd adolf was popular too, that doesn't mean what he claimed about the jews was true :F


//asshat

That's the beauty of religion, I guess.

You can't explicitly prove there isn't a God, and I can't explicitly prove there is one.

Actually, he might do something random in your life to get your attention. You never know ;)

CheekyPunk27 03-10-2010 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11021445)
I'm going to be a very immature asshat with you, but you will probably get the point anyways:
So I herd adolf was popular too, that doesn't mean what he claimed about the jews was true :F


//asshat

I suppose...

But if someone were to raise from the dead, you'd at least have to think that there was SOMETHING special about that person... right?

If look at history and the facts, you have to admit that something 'fishy' around that time happened. Whether you accept that it was Jesus rising from the dead, and then accept his claims, or whether you just say "well, something happened, and I don't know what it was".

Either way, something happened. That is fact.

Some people try to claim the disciples were on drugs, or hallucinating, or were just lying. You may think that... but if you weigh up the evidence and facts of history we know, you'll find that you'll need to chuck our reason and logic in order to believe those.

I know technically it's not logical for someone to rise from the dead. But who is more close minded, the one who deny's or the one who accepts?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11021456)
That's the beauty of religion, I guess.

You can't explicitly prove there isn't a God, and I can't explicitly prove there is one.

Actually, he might do something random in your life to get your attention. You never know ;)

Exactly.

Evidence can only get you so far in either direction. At some stage, you need to take that step of 'faith' or whatever you want to call it. It just depends on which direction you take it.

I'd hope that me and fletch can be random enough to get your attention too. hahaha. You 'know' us. We're normal, we play co and stuff (ok I dunno if that classifies us as normal, but you get the point). We're not stupid, and we believe. The two can go together!

--

On a side note, lets start up a CO Bible study on the forums :D
I've been reading through Mark with my church group, using the "Swedish Method". Simple and easy, takes 5 mins to do yourself, and gets lots of discussion going.


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