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CheekyPunk27 03-16-2010 13:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11029258)
(I just moved back to my home town. Haven't really had a lot of time to screw around with this.)
What about the ressurection? I don't believe there's anything miraculous about it.

@bolded part: yeah, a historical narrative containing events that didn't show up anywhere but the bible.

Welcome back.

So, resurrection... do you think it happened? Can you give some sort of opinion on that? Because as I've said before, the resurrection is pretty much the foundation of Christianity. Without it, there would be no Christians.

So, happen or not? If not, what did actually happen?

What's wrong with the Bible as evidence? Maybe it was just so convincing and true that anyone who wrote about it also became Christians? :p

Anyway, I think we need to be more specific when talking about historical/reliability of the Bible. OT and NT are different because of different time periods in which they were written and stuff.

I'm going to read up a bit more about that stuff, so if you could explain a bit more about what you mean in the "@bolded part", would be good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticArcher (Post 11029674)
1. maybe he didnt die
2. maybe he didnt exist
3. as they already said, many people were said dead and werent...and imagine they had no technology back then

and yes i find it retarded when people only see what they want to see and ignore reality completely

~ i hate vegetables and i love myself...this does not make sense either

you're not ignored.

it's just that, as anything in this thread (apparently) you require some sort of evidence to back it up.

1. Prove it.
2. uhh, the majority of scholarly historians accept that he did exist, so you'll have a hard time finding really credible evidence for that
3. evidence says otherwise

ChaoticArcher 03-16-2010 14:24

well see, "evidence" is the whole problem..if there were ANY of it nobody would question god...yet me and arronoob are on this thread and so are the millions out there...seems the smarter humans get the less they believe

oh and i know jesus most likely existed, the man that is..but the whole fairy bart is B-S

besides some of my posts are only random stuff i throw in to get the subject deeper no real point really

BuddhaIncarnate 03-16-2010 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticArcher (Post 11029812)
well see, "evidence" is the whole problem..if there were ANY of it nobody would question god...yet me and arronoob are on this thread and so are the millions out there...seems the smarter humans get the less they believe

oh and i know jesus most likely existed, the man that is..but the whole fairy bart is B-S

besides some of my posts are only random stuff i throw in to get the subject deeper no real point really

Actually, by looking at this thread, there seems to be no correlation between intelligence and belief in religion.

Stating you as my primary evidence, since you want evidence so bad.

Arronax 03-16-2010 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11030141)
Actually, by looking at this thread, there seems to be no correlation between intelligence and belief in religion.

Stating you as my primary evidence, since you want evidence so bad.

A retard is a retard, religious or not. Though Chaos is more of a vegetable than a retard. ^^; I digress....

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheekyPunk27 (Post 11029747)
Welcome back.

So, resurrection... do you think it happened? Can you give some sort of opinion on that? Because as I've said before, the resurrection is pretty much the foundation of Christianity. Without it, there would be no Christians.

I'll accept that a person named Jesus might have been walking around attracting attention to himself around 'that time', I'll accept that a Jesus may have been crucified (I'm really not convinced, but I'm no historian and I really didn't bother looking too deep into the subject), after all, crucifiction was an ordinary thing around that time. Jesus probably wasn't an unusual name either.

I'll also go as far as accepting that a person named Jesus, who was crucified, was tossed into a tomb after his death for some reason or another, and that the tomb was found empty. I won't accept that the same person was later reunited with his entourage, alive and kicking.( From what I've understood from what I've read so far, there's not a shred of evidence backing any of this up.. but it wouldn't be a stretch to think that a person by the name of Jesus was crucified and his body tossed into a tomb around that time ^^) The fact that christianity started up, and is a major religion in this world is fairly irrelevant to this subject (just assuming you're going to bring that up again..)

There's a wide number of reasons a corpse could disappear from it's tomb, most of which aren't miraculous at all.


So, happen or not? If not, what did actually happen? I didn't witness it, you didn't witness it and judging by the lack of historical evidence (outside of the bible), noone else did either. Who knows, really? If it wasn't big enough of a deal for the contemporary historians to write anything about it, there's really no reason to dwell on it.

What's wrong with the Bible as evidence? Maybe it was just so convincing and true that anyone who wrote about it also became Christians? :p
Because christian authors would have something to gain from altering facts. Maybe the person Jesus was just a traveling medicine man who was accused of heresy and judged to hang on a cross? Then the stories of his feats were blown out of proportion, twisted by oral story telling traditions, massaged by the tooth of time into the version we now have in the bible?


Anyway, I think we need to be more specific when talking about historical/reliability of the Bible. OT and NT are different because of different time periods in which they were written and stuff.
I'm treating it as one book ;F I'm really not that interested in judaism vs christianity, I'm pretty much interested in discussing the authenticity of that god (assuming it's the same one..) as a whole
I'm going to read up a bit more about that stuff, so if you could explain a bit more about what you mean in the "@bolded part", would be good.

I meant exactly what it says. Hardly any events in the bible show up anywhere else than in the bible. There's no trace of any of it in the 'history books' (yeah, probably the wrong word.. "historical accounts" instead maybe? It's late and I cba finding out. You get the point though, hopefully.


[cant post just a quote]

BuddhaIncarnate 03-16-2010 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11030188)
A retard is a retard, religious or not. Though Chaos is more of a vegetable than a retard. ^^; I digress....




[cant post just a quote]

I think you miss the main point about the start of Christianity.

All of the disciples of Jesus who chose to start teaching faced death and persecution.

They did not get rich, they got killed. They knew it would happen, too, as this is what Jesus told them.

These are the people who were personally with Jesus for his entire ministry. You think if they found out his story was a lie they would die for him, when they had nothing to gain from it?

ChaoticArcher 03-16-2010 20:26

why did the bearded fairy make saturn?:confused:

BuddhaIncarnate 03-16-2010 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticArcher (Post 11030289)
why did the bearded fairy make saturn?:confused:

The more confusing question is why he made you :confused:

Arronax 03-17-2010 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11030202)
I think you miss the main point about the start of Christianity.

All of the disciples of Jesus who chose to start teaching faced death and persecution.

They did not get rich, they got killed. They knew it would happen, too, as this is what Jesus told them.

These are the people who were personally with Jesus for his entire ministry. You think if they found out his story was a lie they would die for him, when they had nothing to gain from it?

Stupidity? Death wish?


Why do people jump off bridges, they know it'll kill em..?


The start of christianity is in no way, shape or form proof of anything miraculous.

CheekyPunk27 03-17-2010 05:11

Quote:

Cheeky: So, happen or not? If not, what did actually happen?
Arro: I didn't witness it, you didn't witness it and judging by the lack of historical evidence (outside of the bible), noone else did either. Who knows, really? If it wasn't big enough of a deal for the contemporary historians to write anything about it, there's really no reason to dwell on it.
Historical evidence isn't just what is written down. History affects us today, because things happened in the past.

Of course, none of us witnessed it. But the people back then did, and they started a religion out of what they witnessed. That is the evidence we're looking at.

And it is a big deal, hence why we're talking about it now.
As well, if it's true, you're going to hell, to put it bluntly. That's a big deal.

The thing is, that is offensive. It's wrong, right? Maybe... I'm not saying the "better safe than sorry", I'm just saying if those really are the implications ie. eternal life, or eternal death and suffering... then it warrants a very close look.

Quote:

Arro: Because christian authors would have something to gain from altering facts.
The only thing they had to gain was eternal life. There were no material, physical, egotistical benefits at all, and this is well documented by history. This is further evidence, as you could say. Fletch has addressed this point rather well.

Quote:

Arro: the lack of historical evidence (outside of the bible)
I just want to address this again.
You admit, there is evidence, however you believe it may be biased.
Great!

But don't dismiss it because you think it might be biased, analyse it and see if it is actually biased. Don't let your opinion (they had something to gain) stop you from investigating... that is your bias!

If you think they're not worth considering because of bias, investigate that bias and prove yourself right (or wrong). But please, as I said earlier, it actually could be really important, and you don't want to have not investigated properly, leading to something.. bad.

Quote:

Arro: There's a wide number of reasons a corpse could disappear from it's tomb, most of which aren't miraculous at all.
Yes, there are wide number of reasons.
Like:
He didn't die.
The disciples stole the body.
The jews stole the body.
They had the wrong tomb.

But again... don't just stop there with your opinion. Investigate it!
All those are just as unlikely as Jesus rising from the dead. The thing is, history points to Jesus actually rising.
If he didn't die, we would know because history would not have unfolded as it did.
If they disciples stole the body, we would know because history would not have unfolded as it did.

The facts are that history has unfolded in such a way that points to Jesus resurrecting. You could say this is "evidence". I know it's not "100% proof" evidence, but it's more evidence than there is for "The disciples stole his body" or any of the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11030542)
Stupidity? Death wish?


Why do people jump off bridges, they know it'll kill em..?


The start of christianity is in no way, shape or form proof of anything miraculous.

This.

I think you know that there actually is evidence, but you don't want to believe it. A lot of people are like this... it's like the person who is told a loved one is dead... they don't want to believe it, and say "maybe he's just gone away for a bit, he'll come back". Making up fanciful explanations when the evidence points otherwise...

If you don't think the start of Christianity is proof of something miraculous (namely, Jesus resurrecting), then I'm sure you can provide another explanation for the facts of history that we know have happened (ie. disciples starting up a religion) from an alternative explanation of Jesus' empty tomb?

One that is actually believable and rational.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuddhaIncarnate (Post 11030293)
The more confusing question is why he made you :confused:

well, it does say somewhere (romans maybe, or hebrews) that God created some things (articles or vessels or something) destined for destruction (the example the writer gives is Pharaoh). :eek:

Jerri~v.2.1 03-17-2010 05:44

Some philosophers think that you should believe in God, just in case.

I mean, he forgives all your sins and stuff, so just when you're dieing be like "God I repent and accept your love" and then you get your spot in heaven. If God doesnt exist, then you lose nothing. If God does exist, then you are spared from eternity in hell :D

Arronax 03-17-2010 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheekyPunk27 (Post 11030632)
Historical evidence isn't just what is written down. History affects us today, because things happened in the past.

Of course, none of us witnessed it. But the people back then did, and they started a religion out of what they witnessed. That is the evidence we're looking at.

And it is a big deal, hence why we're talking about it now.
As well, if it's true, you're going to hell, to put it bluntly. That's a big deal.

The thing is, that is offensive. It's wrong, right? Maybe... I'm not saying the "better safe than sorry", I'm just saying if those really are the implications ie. eternal life, or eternal death and suffering... then it warrants a very close look.
Yeah, I don't really want to be a part of your sect if the punishment for being a good person without belonging to christianity is eternal suffering. I'll take my chances, and if I end up in hell, I hope I burn well.


I just want to address this again.
You admit, there is evidence, however you believe it may be biased.
Great!
not really. I think you need to turn off your stupidity and re-read it.
But don't dismiss it because you think it might be biased, analyse it and see if it is actually biased. Don't let your opinion (they had something to gain) stop you from investigating... that is your bias!

If you think they're not worth considering because of bias, investigate that bias and prove yourself right (or wrong). But please, as I said earlier, it actually could be really important, and you don't want to have not investigated properly, leading to something.. bad.
Is that a threat? Go fuck yourself.


Yes, there are wide number of reasons.
Like:
He didn't die.
The disciples stole the body.
The jews stole the body.
They had the wrong tomb.

But again... don't just stop there with your opinion. Investigate it!
All those are just as unlikely as Jesus rising from the dead. The thing is, history points to Jesus actually rising. no, the bible points to jesus rising. history says nothing about it
If he didn't die, we would know because history would not have unfolded as it did. Noone said a person named jesus didn't die at a cross. =)
If they disciples stole the body, we would know because history would not have unfolded as it did. Lies are a powerful tool.. I'll leave it at that :)

The facts are that history has unfolded in such a way that points to Jesus resurrecting. You could say this is "evidence". I know it's not "100% proof" evidence, but it's more evidence than there is for "The disciples stole his body" or any of the others.



This.

If you don't think the start of Christianity is proof of something miraculous (namely, Jesus resurrecting), then I'm sure you can provide another explanation for the facts of history that we know have happened (ie. disciples starting up a religion) from an alternative explanation of Jesus' empty tomb?

One that is actually believable and rational.

I could say that aliens abducted his corpse because they needed a sex toy, and it would be as rational and believable as the explanation given in the bible.


well, it does say somewhere (romans maybe, or hebrews) that God created some things (articles or vessels or something) destined for destruction (the example the writer gives is Pharaoh). :eek:

No, I don't believe there's any actual evidence at all. There is only what is written in the bible, and as I've said around 15 times now, that's not evidence at all.
The reason it's not evidence is the same as the reason why the supposed ark isn't evidence of anything.




The only thing they had to gain was eternal life. There were no material, physical, egotistical benefits at all, and this is well documented by history. This is further evidence, as you could say. Fletch has addressed this point rather well.


Oh really? People wouldn't twist facts in order to control masses of people, people wouldn't blow anything out of proportion to gain followers to their 'faction'? Oh wait, maybe you're one of those that believe that christians are better people than everyone else. I also like that you didn't comment on my hypothesis about jesus ^^;


The start of christianity, again, is not compelling evidence for anything miraculous. You don't need anything actually miraculous to happen for someone to believe that it did.



I think you know that there actually is evidence, but you don't want to believe it. A lot of people are like this... it's like the person who is told a loved one is dead... they don't want to believe it, and say "maybe he's just gone away for a bit, he'll come back". Making up fanciful explanations when the evidence points otherwise...

On the contrary, you're the one that want to justify your belief so badly that you'll grasp at straws, disregard anything else than your own belief, ignore the lack of actual evidence for your belief and so on.
I've got a fairly open mind, I just don't believe in anything until there is _PROPER PROOF_ of it. Which is the reasonable thing to do. Then again, christians are brainwashed from the day they are born, so I guess it's hard for you to open your eyes and see the forest for the trees.

If there's no other ""proof"" than the fact that christianity started up, then it's really not a religion worth believing in. Scientology started up, so did hinduism, the ancient greek religion, the ancient norse religion and so on.

If the start of christianity is proof of the events detailed in the bible, then the start of the religions I mentioned are proof of the exact same thing (for each respective religion of course). Christianity is no unique snowflake in that regard. The only reason the norse religion isn't widespread nowadays is because of christian ''missionary'' efforts (Aka, believe or die.. Oh the great deeds christianity are responsible for.. =) ah well.. I'll save the witchhunts, the crusades and the inquisition for a later time :))



edit: Oh, and it's always funny to see you people band together because you're unable to argue your case alone. :>

CheekyPunk27 03-17-2010 06:46

Arro, I really don't think you're reading and understanding my posts.

Quote:

If the start of christianity is proof of the events detailed in the bible,
It's not 'proof' of events in the Bible. It's 'proof' that Jesus resurrected.
'Proof' used loosely, as some don't consider it proof.

Quote:

Is that a threat? Go **** yourself.
no threat, something bad as in.. hell. xD sorry.

Quote:

no, the bible points to jesus rising. history says nothing about it
I really don't think you're getting the point.

If Jesus didn't rise, why would Christianity have started up?

History says Christianity started up --> Jesus rose.

Maybe your version is:
History says Christianity started up --> the disciples lied about Jesus rising.
(If it is, please see the large text below regarding this view. )

If you can't accept this as evidence of Jesus' resurrection, then please explain otherwise, with reasonable and credible evidence, why Christianity started up.

Stuff like "the disciples lied" or "they were tricked" isn't proof. It isn't evidence. It's opinion. If you're going to believe that, then you should provide evidence of how that could lead to Christianity starting up, and evidence of that being the path history took. If you can't give evidence for that, then what are you believing in? Your opinion, or evidence?

Quote:

Lies are a powerful tool.. I'll leave it at that
Yes, they're powerful.

But so is reason. If the disciples lied, why would they suffer their whole lives with nothing to gain, endure persecution, torture and death, for a lie they made up or they knew first hand? Its. Not. Feasible. If you really think about it, logically, rationally, it's not feasible.

Quote:

Oh really? People wouldn't twist facts in order to control masses of people, people wouldn't blow anything out of proportion to gain followers to their 'faction'? Oh wait, maybe you're one of those that believe that christians are better people than everyone else. I also like that you didn't comment on my hypothesis about jesus ^^;
What masses of people were there in first century palestine? What benefits would they gain?

Does it really make sense?

"Hey guys, lets make up a lie, so that we get lots of followers and suffery persecution, seclusion, torture all eventually leading to our death! I really love the benefits of this lie and tricking the masses!!!!"

Sorry, I think I missed your hypothesis. This one, I'm assuming, I'll address it now.

Quote:

Because christian authors would have something to gain from altering facts. Maybe the person Jesus was just a traveling medicine man who was accused of heresy and judged to hang on a cross? Then the stories of his feats were blown out of proportion, twisted by oral story telling traditions, massaged by the tooth of time into the version we now have in the bible?
Nice hypothesis. Where's your proof?

Twisted over a whopping 2 generations of eye witnesses?

The kind of chinese whispers you're talking about takes a long time to develop.

Again, what would they gain?

Quote:

No, I don't believe there's any actual evidence at all. There is only what is written in the bible, and as I've said around 15 times now, that's not evidence at all.
Did you miss the part about "if Jesus did not resurrect, there would be no Christianity". Even Paul says that himself in one of his letters to the Corinthians!

1 Corinthians 15:14
"...if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

This is how convinced they apostles were of Christ's resurrection. They're putting their lives on the line because of the fact that Jesus resurrected. Paul says, if Jesus did not rise, then everything we're doing is pointless. All the suffering and persecutions we're going through is pointless. The point is, he did rise, and we're so convinced of it that what we're going through: all the sufferings and death and torture, IS worth it... because he did rise.

Quote:

I've got a fairly open mind, I just don't believe in anything until there is _PROPER PROOF_ of it. Which is the reasonable thing to do.
If you're so reasonable, and you want _PROPER PROOF_, then why don't you provide some _PROPER PROOF_ of Jesus not dying?
Or some PROPER PROOF that the disciples were lying?
Or some PROPER PROOF that the disciples were crazy?
Or some PROPER PROOF that they disciples were hallucinating?

You must believe something about the supposed 'resurrection', and as a reasonable person, i'm sure you have some PROPER PROOF supporting what you believe.

So please show us this PROPER PROOF you have!

You keep dodging this question... but I hope at least the font size will ensure you do not miss it.

Fletch, Jerri and myself, and I'm sure all those others who are following on in this thread are waiting for you to produce the PROPER PROOF about what you believe happened regarding the resurrection. Please enlighten us.

Don't just tell us your thoughts, your hypothesis, your opinion. You're a reasonable person, you don't believe in anything unless there is proper proof. So show us.

Just for the record, Chaos... Discovery Channel is not Proper Proof.

Quote:

edit: Oh, and it's always funny to see you people band together because you're unable to argue your case alone. :>
we band together hoping that if it comes from different people and different perspectives, you'd get the point =/

(SORRY! A bit agro lol. No hard feelings... Everything in this thread stays in this thread. Gonna sleep now, goodnight!)

Arronax 03-17-2010 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheekyPunk27 (Post 11030802)
Arro, I really don't think you're reading and understanding my posts.
I'm reading them, I'm understanding them, I'm just not agreeing with them =)

It's not 'proof' of events in the Bible. It's 'proof' that Jesus resurrected.
'Proof' used loosely, as some don't consider it proof.
Proof is something absolute.
no threat, something bad as in.. hell. xD sorry.


I really don't think you're getting the point.

If Jesus didn't rise, why would Christianity have started up? If thor wasn't the god of thunder, why would the norse religion have started up? It's the same damned thing, and the logic is flawed as SHYIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEET.

History says Christianity started up --> Jesus rose. History says christianity started up. That still isn't proof that jesus rose. I don't think you quite got the point I made in my previous post regarding those other religions.

Maybe your version is:
History says Christianity started up --> the disciples lied about Jesus rising.
(If it is, please see the large text below regarding this view. )

If you can't accept this as evidence of Jesus' resurrection, then please explain otherwise, with reasonable and credible evidence, why Christianity started up.
The thing is, I don't really give a fuck why christianity started up :) In my eyes, that in itself is irrelevant.
Stuff like "the disciples lied" or "they were tricked" isn't proof. It isn't evidence. It's opinion.It's a hypothesis. =) If you're going to believe that, then you should provide evidence of how that could lead to Christianity starting up, and evidence of that being the path history took. If you can't give evidence for that, then what are you believing in? Your opinion, or evidence? What evidence? "Christianity started up" != evidence for jesus' ressurection. I don't really need to believe anything at all, I just don't believe in the version your book of fairytales presents.


Yes, they're powerful.

But so is reason. If the disciples lied, why would they suffer their whole lives with nothing to gain, endure persecution, torture and death, for a lie they made up or they knew first hand? Its. Not. Feasible. If you really think about it, logically, rationally, it's not feasible.
Maybe they believed that "teh trewth"(TM) would convince everyone, converting anyone and everyone to christianity immediately? =) Yeah, I can't prove that, nor can you disprove it. marvellous isn't it? =)

What masses of people were there in first century palestine? What benefits would they gain?
power over people.
Does it really make sense?

"Hey guys, lets make up a lie, so that we get lots of followers and suffery persecution, seclusion, torture all eventually leading to our death! I really love the benefits of this lie and tricking the masses!!!!"
Read the above. ^^
Sorry, I think I missed your hypothesis. This one, I'm assuming, I'll address it now.


Nice hypothesis. Where's your proof?
The bible itself. ^^ If some parts of the bible are metaphorical, why wouldn't for example the part about jesus healing a dying man (or w\e it was) miracurously be a metaphor for a traveling medicine man who cured a sick person by way of medicine? It very well could be. It's just a hypothesis, but there's no way you could ever disprove it. ^^;

Twisted over a whopping 2 generations of eye witnesses? Oh, so jesus died only 2 generations ago? Cool story bro.

The kind of chinese whispers you're talking about takes a long time to develop.oh, like, say, 2 thousand years?
Again, what would they gain?


Did you miss the part about "if Jesus did not resurrect, there would be no Christianity". Even Paul says that himself in one of his letters to the Corinthians!

1 Corinthians 15:14
"...if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

This is how convinced they apostles were of Christ's resurrection. They're putting their lives on the line because of the fact that Jesus resurrected. Paul says, if Jesus did not rise, then everything we're doing is pointless. All the suffering and persecutions we're going through is pointless. The point is, he did rise, and we're so convinced of it that what we're going through: all the sufferings and death and torture, IS worth it... because he did rise.


If you're so reasonable, and you want _PROPER PROOF_, then why don't you provide some _PROPER PROOF_ of Jesus not dying? Now you're just being retarded again. I never said that a person named jesus didn't die ^^;
Or some PROPER PROOF that the disciples were lying?
Or some PROPER PROOF that the disciples were crazy?
Or some PROPER PROOF that they disciples were hallucinating? Well, the early christians DID appreciate their wine ^^;

You must believe something about the supposed 'resurrection', and as a reasonable person, i'm sure you have some PROPER PROOF supporting what you believe.

So please show us this PROPER PROOF you have!
You want me to provide proof that something did NOT happen? That's fairly absurd. I'm not dodging the question at all, I'm just not sure what you're asking for ^^; Again, the distinct lack of evidence to support your case is all the evidence I could ever need to doubt the authenticity of anything miraculous in the bible. Lack of proof is a funny thing. For example, we have the part about jews screwing around in the desert for 40 years. There has been found no evidence of this, whatsoever. It's like .. it never happened! =)
You keep dodging this question... but I hope at least the font size will ensure you do not miss it.

Fletch, Jerri and myself, and I'm sure all those others who are following on in this thread are waiting for you to produce the PROPER PROOF about what you believe happened regarding the resurrection. Please enlighten us.what ressurection? Never happened. Prove that it ever did, without "WAAH WAAH christianity started therefore eet eez all treeeww." OHWAIT YOU CAN'T! There are no records of it ever happening outside of the bible! Clearly, either there's proof that it DID happen, else it DIDN'T. The lack of evidence of it happening IS the proof of it not happening. GEDDIT? I didn't think I'd have to explain something as obvious as this to you.

Don't just tell us your thoughts, your hypothesis, your opinion. You're a reasonable person, you don't believe in anything unless there is proper proof. So show us.
hah. I'm not the one that needs to produce proof of anything at all mate ^^; You're ganging up like a pack of rats, and it's kind of cute. Your case is so weak, and the only straw you're hanging by is "christianity started -> jesus ressurected". I don't actually have to do jack **** to support MY case.

Just for the record, Chaos... Discovery Channel is not Proper Proof. research by honest, proper scientists is proof as good as any. ;) Now you're just being stupid again.


we band together hoping that if it comes from different people and different perspectives, you'd get the point =/ No, you're seeking strength in numbers. I understand everything you've written so far. I'm just not agreeing with it.

(SORRY! A bit agro lol. No hard feelings... Everything in this thread stays in this thread. Gonna sleep now, goodnight!)hah. remember who you're talking to here. No need to apologize for anything.

WAFFLEWAFFLEPANCAEKS [again, can't post just a quote]

Jerri~v.2.1 03-17-2010 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arronax (Post 11030924)
WAFFLEWAFFLEPANCAEKS [again, can't post just a quote]

I'd like to point out to the 2 generations thing. That's when first bible was written, or something.

Arronax 03-17-2010 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerri~v.2.1 (Post 11031094)
I'd like to point out to the 2 generations thing. That's when first bible was written, or something.

No, that's the time it took from the supposed events took place until they were written down :F

Events|--|--------------------------| Nao
.............X.................. {2k years}



X being when they were written down. Yeah, I didn't bother making the proportions correct, sue me :F


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